???On the exhaust ??? are these only on the USA ZX1400's not on mine but are on my mates 08 XJR1300

My ZX 14 does not have an O2 sensor on the exhaust. My '08 FJR does.
The ZX has an atmospheric pressure sensor, the FJR does not.

I am guessing the ZX is metering the air mass flow going into the engine. The FJR cannot measure air mass flow, it can measure air volume flow, but not mass. But the FJR can adjust the fuel based on the O2 sensor.

I think it is two different ways to get to the same objective: manage fuel/air ratio

The ZX service manual shows the following sensors in the Digital Fuel Injection:
Main throttle
inlet air pressure (located inside the throttle bodies, after the butterflies, good ole engine vacuum measurement)
inlet air temp
water temp
atmospheric pressure (wow, this one is neat, it's located on the frame under the riders seating area)
crankshaft sensor
crankshaft position
speed sensor
gear position
vehicle down
sub throttle sensor (I don't know what this is)

Thankyou for your reply runnerhiker,might be a bit of a differance between Yamaha an Kwaka on my mates 08XRJ its clearly seen on mid r/h pipe on his bike you can just see it behind the footpeg

I am guessing the ZX is metering the air mass flow going into the engine ~ Yes.
The FJR cannot measure air mass flow, it can measure air volume flow, but not mass ~ You tell me the difference. Are we in all the mass we can be? Mass is fast or slow. Volume is is pressure and there is only one number and it's how fast it goes in on the close of the intake valve.
But the FJR can adjust the fuel based on the O2 sensor ~ True. Same as the mass flow, only now it can meter more accurately.

I think it is two different ways to get to the same objective: manage fuel/air ratio ~ Or, the difference between closed and open loop.

The ZX service manual shows the following sensors in the Digital Fuel Injection:
1. Main throttle ~ The TPS goes from idle to wide open throttle (WOT).
2. Inlet air pressure (located inside the throttle bodies, after the butterflies, good ole engine vacuum measurement)
inlet air temp ~ True. You mean to measure the air pressure, it is past the flies.
3. Water temp ~ To know if the bike is hot or cold and knows when to set the choke on a cold engine.
4. Atmospheric pressure (wow, this one is neat, it's located on the frame under the riders seating area) ~ Correct. This is your 02 sensor but in open loop. The Yam with the 02 is closed loop.
5. Camshaft sensor ~ Knows which cylinder stopped and who to spark on start up = Sequential fire.
6. Crankshaft position ~ Knows the speed of the rpms.
7. Speed sensor ~ A cable-less speedo running by fly by wire.
8. Gear position ~ Both a semi-tuning map like an 02 sensor for gear ratios, plus you get a gear window knowing what gear you missed.
9. Vehicle down ~ An automatic kill switch if you and bike depart.
10. Sub throttle sensor (I don't know what this is) ~ It tells you that the secondary computer assist throttle plates are faulty, or say the electric motor controls the opening and closing of the sub-throttle plate via TPS input, is the sub]s output.

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/10/2011 @ 4:16 PM *

THANKYOU AS always great feed back thar hub as always from all my time reading and learning its good to have you here cheers for your dilligent knowledge cobbar

Prolly the o2 sensors you are seeing are after market pieces for self tuning and such. Mine is.

AH HA see rook thats why this place is so good thanks my man the one thing that still had me thankyou very much cobbar

* Last updated by: bean07 on 3/10/2011 @ 1:20 AM *

Here is a remote wideband where I can swap injectors, turn on the accel pump and adjust from 10 down to 12:1 A/Fratio. I can; run the low and high jetting pot numbers on a fuel piggy, pull an air cleaner = Monitor results.

No matter how hard I punch the bike [without fly] = I never have seen it swing lean like down to 15-16-17-18 A/Fratio. The '06 injectors flow more you swap to an '08 ECU.

You try all these tests and find out the piggy is smoother, grunts rich and strong. But @ $4 [hole in my ass0] a gallon, it's more a luxury tank full I switch to, piggy grunt mode.

Bottom line, this 02 is just a stand alone model for jetting observations. And yes, bean, for guys like you that want to know the future in what we are sitting on, she's no loner a set of points and a coil kind of sparking in OZ anymore; click your heels 3 times are the variables

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/10/2011 @ 5:06 PM *

Bit hard to click my heals at the moment hub LOL thanks cobbar learning is great fun right now and getting little pressies for my bike ha ha

Hub

Let me say this about air volume flow vs air mass flow. Let's take two extremes: a ZX running at sea level and a ZX running at 12,000 ft elevation. Two identical flow volume would not also be identical mass flow and air/fuel ratio must have flow mass, not flow volume. The FJR would notice the difference by the O2 sensor, closed loop. The ZX would not be able to compensate without the atmospheric pressure sensor, but since it has one, it can do it, the open loop method.

runnerhiker

Let me explain workshop manuals. There is only one suck in, one blow out. If I am one brand of bike manual, I will say in corporate speak, an engineering feat and now what do we call it? So if I have air passing through that one hole being sucked, I can stop it or slow it down with a, "Stepper Motor" or "Actuator" which both mean the same thing.

Did you see volume flow vs. mass flow or really, did you see any difference between the same sensor taking a reading? If a flow of air goes through a hole, it has temperature. So too does the sensor is set electrically stationed at a certain heat in that glow band like a toaster wire getting hot.

If I blew air over that toaster wire it would drop in heat temp. There would be a way to covert that heat into a 10th of a signal and bingo = Analog reading or like the dial on the toaster is that rheostat to control how long the same heated wire remains the same heat range. However, the time it sits is to ask you, runner, do you see a constant?

We did not make that toaster wire any hotter. So we turn the key on, we have a mass air flow sensor about to heat up like an 02 sensor has a pre-heater to begin with a constant number and now flow over me so I can tell the difference we begin to tune the fuel trim = Here come the input changes from base toaster wire.

So, have we snowed your theory all up about some sort of air volume or mass of air is that cylinder is going to bang 14.7 closed on the constant? There is your confusion if you think you can confuse me is toast your abstract like constant wee on the same page now?

I am ready to hear your mass and volume having two different numbers if I have shown you a constant number no matter how many holes we have that have a cause/effect on a mass of volume of air about the size of; pick a cylinder bore and close the lid. What is the air pressure that entered in mass as mass can be or all the volume it can be. We see it yet?

Because I am questioning my logic if you are proving nature wrong as I see it.

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/11/2011 @ 12:35 AM *

I had to read that one twice.

Most of the old members would remember me discussing the, 'tail sensor' being the 02. It is another method in sensor mode that would recognize [change] if it were at sea level or high altitude and would compensate like an 02.

And since there is less air the higher you go, there is less pressure, right? So, if we turn the key on, sea level knew and has it's base number to start the bike up. That sensor at sea level is going to start up at 12,000ft elevation and that pressure on the tail sensor will have it's base number to start a less rich mix, right?

Open loop is faster in calc. However, in 02 mode; You are waiting for samples to correct like an autotune kind of how fast the computer speed is to count samples before you get the tune dialed in. It all happens quick, no doubt and within seconds are the calc's.

If you look at the code failure of the tail sensor, it calcs the [1-Atmo], i.e., it takes 760mmHg as base number and plots from there. Again, the computer has it's base number if the system fails. It reverts to open loop or one number. Closed loop is analog with a lot of numbers in the linear. Open uses for example, the 760mmHg kicks in for the math read and low and behold it is a constant 14.7 calc number as in all the mass and all the volume it can be.

So, if the MASS fails, the tail sensor fails, the 02 fails, we have backup that runs in the fuel trims a-N and D-J if sensor(s) fail, we have single number calc'd for said failures in the absolute same number stated in mass or volume flow.

Slow me the money!

All I am saying is that air is a compressible fluid and the air fuel mixture has to be done with mass readings, not volume. A given air volume at one pressure does not contain the same air mass as the same volume at a different pressure. The ZX can get its job done by reading the atmospheric air pressure and can do without the O2 sensor. Bean was commenting about the ZX not having an O2 sensor and the FJR did. I was just pointing how both bikes went about getting A/F mixtures in two different fashions.

A given air volume at one pressure does not contain the same air mass as the same volume at a different pressure.

"A given air volume..."; in the cylinder is like saying the glass is empty. This is an [all mass] is the volume held. Did we separate either one?

"... at one pressure..." There is a pressure against the empty both outside and inside is that constant pressure, all consuming in the mass of the glass in and around. Have we separated that pressure/volume yet?

"... does not contain the same air mass..." As what? If I remove the head, stand the empty glass on top of the barrel, is there a constant in and around the empty glass as is the piston at the bottom and are we now looking at two containers that have the same mass if both the glass and cylinder cc's out as for the argument is at stake.

"... as the same volume at a different pressure." And I'll say you meant an altitude change. OK, lets bring the glass and bottom end of the engine up to the ski lodge and tell me, has the volume changed in any way, is not there the same sort of air pressure being a constant?

You gonna tell me the sea level pressure stayed with the glass coming up the hill is the mass in change? I sort of broke down your abstract as far as my trying to understand your pressure and mass if I can use the empty glass and cylinder wall as the mass and volume.

Are they the same number? Now, if you add gas to the glass, did the mass change or just equal out as in a constant saying you could compress air from/to a liquid? We cannot separate ice/water/gas vapor if we use one molecule. Did the mass change in weight? I don't think so. You just see it visually is the same mass in gas/liquid form. Add ice and did you change the mass in the glass? Or did something take up that volume equally and are we more mass in the glass?

Yes, I meant the air pressure changes with altitude. The ZX has an atmospheric air pressure sensor, not an altimeter, it's using atmospheric air pressure to calculate air mass flow. Bikes with O2 sensors don't have (need) atmospheric air pressure sensors. And I am also saying that to get the air/fuel ratio correct, it must be done with mass flow not volume flow.

If volumetric flow says to, 'see mass flow rate' what am I missing? Or, in other words, what are you missing? I think I explained the constant. And of [either two] you look up volume flow rate or mass flow rate, either seems to say to see the other if you want to see the same terms said a different way.

If I have a flow of fluid it is more the speed entered is the change, not the mass or the volume. If air flows hot, then will it enter the chamber kind of faster than cold air. And did it not fill it in mass is all that volume?

It's like saying to fill up your tank in the morning, because the gallon is more dense. So if they were to weigh a gallon of gas in the morning, would a pound still be a pound night or day? If you nit pick the pound is not an exact pound we weigh a pound of lead to a pound of gas and tell me of the lead goes light as if we kept the pound of liquid in a vacuum so nothing evaporates as in looses weight.

Now, did a pound of lead change during the day as if a pound of butter would lose a few ounces during the day. So, once again, have you figured out you are saying the same constant and the cars use the term mass air, and some other same type of measuring tool with a heater inside like a mass air flow to know the heat band changed in temp?

If I say IAP for (intake air pressure sensor), what is the difference if a shop manual uses, "Inlet" and not intake. Are not both functioning in the same constant?

If I look at the sensors, they too maintain a constant. You'll notice that sensors take on a, 0.2 ~ 4.8v value to operate along with another constant electrical source needing the 2 to 4 volt range.

If I look at a failed sensor, did not the math revert back to base, "1 atm" as in 14.7 psi means the same thing? So, no matter what ratio of fuel to air enters, we figure to draw fuel in, it needs to be sprayed on the piston descend. So, at BDC (bottom dead center) are we not stopped as if we could stop that piston now and if it stoped, did not the air stop too?

Then if that is the case, is not that fill all massed, all volume, all she wrote is the fill in the mass is mass @ BDC?
Then if that is the case, is not the fill filled to the max or if I say mass for max filled all that volume up is the constant number filled and if failed is brought out once again as in the math computer reads the 1Atmo?

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/12/2011 @ 4:10 PM *

The old carburators are air volume devices, a carburated engine set up for sea level will run rich at high altitude because that air is thinner. The effect of the venturi sucking gas from the jet is a volume/velocity thing, but the carburator had no way of knowing the air is thin (less mass than at sea level). Fuel injected engines have a way to deal with that, as you know, most use an exhaust O2 sensor. Our ZX's, though, use an atmospheric pressure sensor (which is not the same as inlet throat pressure sensor).

If the carb pulls out the same mass at altitude or sea level, show me the difference in the constant. All you showed me was the carb pulled the same or equal volume as pulled out through the constant at sea level. The air is less but the cylinder has all the mass and volume locked right back to the constant.

If say we have a hand held vacuum gauge and the needle reads zero. Basically it is in static mode until you pull the handle back to begin to suck the volume and then the gauge begins to read what pressure is on your finger via vacuum-pressure.

If say we bring that vacuum gauge up in elevation and apply the same moves. Is not that needle all at zero without your finger over the hole to cause the vacuum? Again, do you see the constant in the gauge at sea level and then at altitude?

Would not the same apply as the vacuum is pulled out of the carb? Only problem is; less air to fire that same proportion. Thus, volumetric efficiency. So is not the efficiency off, but the same volume applies as in equally @ BDC. Because would you agree, the fuel stops flowing the cylinder is at the bottom.

Let me ask you this. If I port the head, will that let more air into the cylinder chamber?
Let me ask you another question. Do you understand the concept that Kawi uses the abstract, 'backup' to represent a failed code? And Suz uses the same abstract for the same code and that is called, 'fail-safe'; for both follow the same constant 2-4v range. Both follow the same sensors applying the same theory or how FI works between bikes are the same. Sam as saying the bikes have carbs in common as if applying the sensors to trigger the injector timing being the final point is a jet or an injector is going to shoot the proportion; if all else is equally tuned for said altitude.

Hub, I am going to give this a rest.

I hear ya, runner. Once I throw out the qualifier Q... It's over.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ok7hsOtNNg

WOT I was doing was Abbot and Costello'INN you like use one number against your abstract and you were union dabbing yourself. I can tell if you are on par with the ECU/Carb/Backasswords engineering the click off, word up so as to trick you up. Explain we are taking about one number and you are saying there are many numbers for the MASS Air Flow into the engine? No matter what number you see being at idle, name the number that Abbot and Costello swings to no matter the close of the valve.

We on the same page yet because as far as I can tell, how come I use one number, see one number swing for every action, there is an opposite same number as if dead in the gear ragging water it floods in like goes out run for higher ground!

* Last updated by: Hub on 3/14/2011 @ 10:37 AM *

All I am saying is that air is a compressible fluid and the air fuel mixture has to be done with mass readings, not volume.

Piston is at BDC. Now we can compress the fluid/air.
Piston is at BDC. Now we can see all that volume has been filled.
Piston is at BDC. Now we can state the same mass of air has been filled.

Piston is at TDC. Now we can see the piston descend and create a vacuum.
Piston is at TDC. Now we can see the piston is going to draw air into a MAF sensor and once it hits BDC, the air stops, the cooling stops cooling the toaster wire.
Piston is at BDC. Now we can see the piston draw that air in mass. That's all the masshe wrote at BDC which started at TDC.

Piss Sin My Pants Dis makes no sense to me is how come you haven't risen, hiker? LOL!!!!!

MAF cooled to one number and that says open loop = 1 number.
IAP has vacuum on it and it being sucked via one constant number = Open loop.

Weeza squeeza back to one number is the constant? Mass on my toaster wire. Vacuum pull on my wafer = "Send in the Clowns. Never mind dare here."