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Thread: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?

Created on: 08/08/11 06:52 AM

Replies: 15

KAK



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Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 6:52 AM

Anyone know why? I'm replacing the clutch springs with some Brock's HD springs after work today. Hope that fixes my problem of the amount of lever free play fluctuating. I'll apply some threadlock of course, but just wonder why the one bolt only. Thanks.

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Kruz


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 9:47 AM

Same thing on the pulser cover on the '06 and '07 models but dropped in '08. This was discussed in an earlier thread, something to do with coolant leakage without the thread sealant if I remember the conversation correctly.



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motoCycho


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Location: SLC, UT

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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 11:53 AM

KAK

Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 6:52 AM

Anyone know why? I'm replacing the clutch springs with some Brock's HD springs after work today. Hope that fixes my problem of the amount of lever free play fluctuating. I'll apply some threadlock of course, but just wonder why the one bolt only. Thanks.


Hum.. I seem to remember some thread locker on one or two maybe? I know there RTV silicone on a couple spots where the case halves come together. I have had the cover off many many times and never renewed either and have had no leaks from that side at all.

As for the problem of the amount of lever free play fluctuating... I too am having this issue. I have swapped out the steels and this help it some. I had a few that were starting to warp a bit. I will be replacing the clutch hub next as I can see scoop shaped wear where the steels slide back and fourth. Also I bled the clutch system and this seemed to help a little as well.. does it less frequently anyway. I think I will tear into the clutch master and replace the guts there.

It is a frustrating issue because it feels perfect sometimes then you grab the clutch and its wrong. Take up is too low etc. I found that if you put the bike back to neutral and then push out the lever at the pivot then grab it again it will feel fine. Which leads me to believe it's mostly a problem at the clutch master cylinder. My solution is to throw a bunch of new parts at it.

Oh, I have the Brock's HD springs already.


* Last updated by: motoCycho on 8/8/2011 @ 11:56 AM *



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Hub


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 2:41 PM

How many master cylinders have your rebuilt since the inception? Why are you guys rebuilding masters when you lose prime? Well maintained, the rubbers should last. Flushed, the metal surface should not score so as to wear out before the bike does. More sitting brakes work better than bike sitting for years not runnning.

1. It's the initial priming to clear out the bubble problem, not a change out the mater rubber at 3,500 miles on the bike.
2. Rub both hands together, which clutch stayed cool and not equally worn.
3. I just changed the steels and expect the other hand to say cool to the rub and now I can reuse the frictions they look good and not worn? Yeah right.
4. Oh, btw, I have a fluctuating clutch pack with new and used friction parts all mixed in. Whoever reads DIS is crying about how half/ass'did I say that pack was put together?
5. Remember that finger move. Pray with finger tips against each other is like indiscriminately tossing in a steel or friction without seeing the subtle trick. Now fingers over fingers and see how both travel in the same direction as opposed to praying you find N like each time not some of the time.
6. Steels have a round and sharp side. Face the sharp side to the pressure plate where those springs are being installed.
7. The fatter the pack, the plusher the clutch, the snicker you find N. I don't care what the book says, buy all new steels and frictions, buy the fattest plate available. You now are within pack but not under packed if not a tad fat till it wears in and now are you spot on the pack thickness? Yes indeedee.



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KAK



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rockandahardplace

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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/08/11 5:55 PM

Thanks for the replies.
I'll try the Brock's springs anyway. I don't have any experience with hydraulic clutches but my M/C seems to work fine. You release the lever and the piston pops right out, completely. Same thing if you remove the lever and just test the end of the piston assembly. The problem comes and goes. One time it will last only seconds and sometimes about a minute. I'll get up to 1 1/4" of slack then back to normal, all within a few shifts up or down. I've never been hard on the clutch so I don't know why it's screwed up. It does seem related to acceleration though. I don't have to get on it too hard, just a few gears shifting at about 7K and that usually produces extra lever play/slack but not every single time. That's what I can't understand...how it's sometimes OK.
I think it was Romans who said my description matched what his bike was doing exactly so I'll put the springs in as he suggested and I'll let you know if it worked for me. I already replaced the Motul dino oil with Mobil 1 synthetic and it didn't change things much. But the clunk into first is smoother now and there's a little less cam chain rattle at start up. So it is better overall.

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Rook


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/09/11 3:05 PM

Same thing on the pulser cover on the '06 and '07 models but dropped in '08. This was discussed in an earlier thread, something to do with coolant leakage without the thread sealant if I remember the conversation correctly.
If you are talking about the crankshaft sensor cover (timing cover), I pulled that off my 08 last night. The top screw had locktight. None of the others did.

So the thread hole must be drilled into the water jacket??? seems like it would leak when the screw was removed??? No matter, I always locktight anything that was locktighted at factory or as recommended in SM.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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KAK



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rockandahardplace

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Posts: 761

RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/09/11 9:16 PM

Well, for anyone interested, I swapped out the clutch springs for Brock's. I decided to paint the clutch cover bolts so I don't have it together yet.
This is what I have regarding the stock clutch springs. The factory manual says standard clutch spring length is 2.56" and the service limit is 2.44". All of mine were right at 2.46" or 2.45". Measured them as accurately as I could with my verniers.
Measured the new Brock's HD springs and they were all 2.815" give or take a hair. So they're about .25" longer than the "standard" stock springs, when new I assume.
I don't abuse the clutch at all. No hard launches or even moderate. I do some roll on's quite a bit but not much use of the lever then. I'm just surprised all my springs were just barely above the service limit. 2007 and just under 9,000 miles. Of course, I have no idea what my springs were when new but it appears mine sagged somewhat quicker than I'd expect. Though the old springs were still serviceable, I hope the new springs fix things. Changed one at a time and torqued to 6.5 ft/lb. Should know soon.
As for the one bolt needing threadlock, the factory put just a thin amount on and it was up the bolt about 1/2". No coolant came out but the bike is on the sidestand. The amount of silicone sealant the factory put on the two areas where the case halves join seemed useless. Both the amount and exactly where they applied it. I got some oil "sweating" through around those two bolts holding the halves together on the left side but I'm not sure I want to torque them a little more. The factory "Kawasaki bond" seems applied well along the halves and is very pliable but it still lets oil through. Not a big deal so I'm not sure I want to mess with it. I'll use just a tad of hi-temp copper silicone sealant because the manual says to where the gasket meets the casing at the area where the case halves join.
One thing I didn't like was the stock cover gasket has this silver coating on it and it stuck to the cases. Not hard to scrape of with a fingernail and spray but still messy trying to keep the chips from getting inside the clutch area. I'm used to uncoated gaskets I guess.
Just thought I'd pass this on.


* Last updated by: KAK on 8/9/2011 @ 9:32 PM *

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Rook


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/09/11 10:30 PM

thanks. geeze, wonder how my clutch springs look?



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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motoCycho


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Location: SLC, UT

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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/10/11 2:43 AM

Clutch springs don't wear out from hard riding or hard launches or roll-ons. They wear out from lots of clutching and holding the clutch in a lot. Not saying you should take your bike out of gear at lights but it would save on clutch spring wear.

I would not recommend heavy duty clutch springs for anything but high performance applications such as drag racing or NOS or turbo or top speed runs etc. The need for HD springs is to prevent clutch slip. A better choice for a stock motor in normal street applications is simply getting new OEM springs. You are going to hate the added lever tension in traffic.

Painting the bolts? Why? The paint will chip and scratch when you put a socket back on them to tighten them.

I don't use any sealant on mine and it has never leaked. It will be easier to pop off the cover when you go back to OEM springs.. the gasket won't tear and you will be able to reuse it.



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Rook


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/10/11 12:42 PM

Painting the bolts? Why? The paint will chip and scratch when you put a socket back on them to tighten them.

Stretch some electrical tape over them before you put a wrench to them. I do that withh all the dark grey stock bolts like the banjo bolts on the brake lines.....or any anodized bolts I have on my aftermarket parts. It's a PITA but while you are still in your pristine phase, not much else you can do to keep it perfect.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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KAK



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rockandahardplace

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Posts: 761

RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/12/11 2:19 PM

The added tension at the lever isn't much. Barely noticable really. What I notice is the lever just feels more "springy". Weak springs will cause slipping and mine were barely above the service limit so it looks like they were going anyway. If they weaken that quickly then I wouldn't want to replace them with the same thing.
I painted the bolts knowing it was an experiment so to speak. I primed and then painted them satin black, let them sit in the sun a day and then tried baking them at 325 for 45 minutes. You're right, they chipped while installing. Not much because I was careful but I had to touch up with a toothpick here and there. Still looks good for now. Last year I looked all over for some black bolts but couldn't find them. I did find some black-oxide coated steel bolts in the same design but I don't like the color of them. Look like they've been in the desert for 40 years. Found some black anodized bolts but they're not steel and the maker said they shouldn't be used in this application. So I burned out on the whole thing and decided to try it myself.
The gasket requires some sealant at two places. I saw where the factory applied it so I just did the same. If the factory manual says to apply it then I see no reason to short cut something that can cause grief. We're talking 1 minute to apply a fraction of a drop. I also never re-use a gasket like this and the sealant did nothing to compromise the gasket. The silver coating is what comes off the gasket. My entire gasket lost the coating. That's what took more time, cleaning off the coating so the new gasket won't leak.
On some valve covers I'll apply a very thin coat of bearing grease because it helps the old gasket come off easy and there's little or no scraping to do.
Rook, thanks for the tip. Never tried electrical tape. Wish I knew the best baking process for painted hardware. Of course, any hardware that will need a socket over it will be subject to chips. The Lockhart Phillips screws I bought for my bodywork and windshield work great. But they're button head and that helps. I have several bolts powdercoated and they stand up to tools so far. Does make removing/installing more difficult but I like the hardware blacked out.


* Last updated by: KAK on 8/12/2011 @ 2:23 PM *

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KAK



Location:

rockandahardplace

Joined: 02/16/09

Posts: 761

RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/13/11 8:18 AM

As motoCycho said, the Brock's springs didn't fix the fluctuating clutch lever play. Trying to figure this out. Don't want to take it to the dealer.
Mayber between motoCycho's willingness to throw money at it and my willingness to let him, we can figure this out.
Too nice a bike to have this going on.
I'm not sure if this is a common problem. I have no experience with hydraulic clutches and don't know what each part actually does in operation. One thing I'm sure of is the problem shows itself after moderate to hard acceleration. I can ride all day just cruising/shifting and no problem. But accelerate and the extra play shows up. Then just as quickly the play returns to normal. I don't know if heat has anything to do with because I don't accelerate hard enough while the clutch is still cold to find out. So it's related to acceleration and goes away by itself, at least right now.
Fresh fluid, proper bleeding, new springs/clutch plates aren't the fix. Hope I don't sound too stupid trying to figure this out.
Whatever part(s) is responsible it seems to be related to the parts positioning. If a part was bad because it was worn past its service limit, or warped or bent, etc, it would cause the problem all the time. But if a part was working OK unless it was forced into a certain position (like under harder acceleration), maybe a burr or lack of lubrication could cause it to stick momentarily until sytem pressure allows/forces it to return fully??
Looking at the parts diagram, I'm thinking one of the two push rods could be the problem, the piston that the push rod presses against, or even the return spring next to the piston. The two rods require some special grease, molyb.... I assume any lack of lubrication or even a burr or grooving somewhere on one of them could cause this problem. Maybe the rod goes in and out just fine under normal conditions but under harder acceleration it may go inward or outward(?) that little extra bit and something makes it stick temporarily? Same idea with the piston and clutch release spring.
I'd appreciate any experience you guys have. Explaining basic clutch operation can even help.


* Last updated by: KAK on 8/13/2011 @ 8:23 AM *

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Hub


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/13/11 11:01 AM

Mr. KAKiss fucking around already!

1. Take; said C-clamp, said folded up paper towels in a square.
2. Set paper pads on top of finishes where the C-clamp feet touch.
3. Soakiss a paper towel into the brake rez. Why? Start to send that piston home till it stops.
4. Did you figure out you are going to have minimum volume in said clutch caliper?
5. As you have a backup kind of remove some dot-4; out of the master rez with some paper towel. Wait. I changed my mind.
6. Open the clutch master's bleeder. Push some tube over the nipple or hold a paper towel over the nipple and now squeeze the caliper piston home, go back-bleeding so try it this way.
7. Say you have the 8mm wrench hanging out so both your hands are busy [no helper] kind of working that piston in with the C-clamp. You have two options to close the nipple with that wrench looking at you. Once you send that piston home, you need to be ready to close that nipple at the clutch lever.
8. Option 1: Set elbow near the 8mm wrench and back up a funny bone at it sorta close the deal.
9. Option 2: Can't stand that pain? Find a step stool, step up on it backasswords, stick your bum out and gyrate it closed with a bump-bump-keep turning the clamp... Now bump the nipple butt style, and don't snap off the 'nip'pit in the butt' sort of careful now!


* Last updated by: Hub on 8/13/2011 @ 11:05 AM *



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KAK



Location:

rockandahardplace

Joined: 02/16/09

Posts: 761

RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/13/11 11:52 AM

Hub, I appreciate your time but don't follow you.
When you say to use a C-clamp to push the caliper piston, do you mean the M/C on the bar? If so, I removed the lever and tried pushing in the piston but I couldn't do it. There's a part there that toggles to any side if you try to push it in. Forcing things would just break that part.
Only other piston is the one down at the slave behind the 3 bolt cover.

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Hub


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/13/11 11:58 AM

Technically, I would have glue a clear cover over the clutch oil filler cap. Place camera at the hole, watch the clutch grow so you lose that lever. Guess WOT? Happens with cable clutch levers too. I would hammer some old style 750cc size engine say.

I'm going, what the hell happened to my lever? Mind you, I'm still shifting gears using the lever. Why don't we walk the X to Y and eliminate one. I don't know if you got a visual ever trying to work alone needing more hands, butt if you got that picture in your head...

... Start with X:

1. We have a push rod that is so long.
2. We have to push that rod far enough away from all the plates so there is a gap between frictions and steels.
3. We have been pushing bubbles to cause the hydraulic lock to happen farther down the lever throw.
4. We have the lever more in the middle before the rod moves. That means; hard to find N and/or creep at a light w/clutch in.
5. We have a short throw if we cannot remove all that air... Period.
6. We have our pack correct, we have a lever farther out and loads sooner, because the piston has less to compress in the caliper being deeper set in the caliper housing.
7. We have so much 'caliper piston distance' designed in as is the 'length of the rod,' as is the 'stroke distance of the master's volume.'
8. We have our 3 amigos all designed to have a certain distance to break plate = NO BUBBLES!
9. We have concluded that if the rod did not collapse; the pack did not 'wear past the serviceable limit'; the hydraulic system is as designed for the other two items stated...
10. ... We have concluded, it is not X.


... End with Y:

1. Why does the clutch grow and then show no joy at the lever?
2. Why I have no clue but to guess with you.
3. Why I'll bend over and take a crack at it.
4. Why then do we have both clutch growth no matter it cable or liquid levers?
5. Why that is the 64K Q. If X is fine on a cold or warm engine, we hammer some clutch plate and did we slip it?
6. Why I don't know that question. I would think if you pull lever each time, it has to slip if the wheel slowed but the engine did not so much.
7. Why bring that up? Because we are at the Y and Z means growth. We want to know why that lever when 1/2 pull when hot.
8. Why here is my guess. See those blue spots on the steels?
9. Why I think those stick out where they are the high spot or have some warp going on the slip buy you can't feel it so much as it is still holding but say the pressure plate is pushed out from it.
10. Why I can't bring X into that factor because the rod is permanently fixed as are the other amigos.
11. Why whom be left but something that can grow and if that pressure plate is pushed out, would that be the same as saying you have the lever pulled about there?
12. Why you can still pull it to the grip and it finally breaks because the distance was not that much.
13. Why not the basket grow out with that band around it.
14. Why would you think it would more grow where? In? Then if the plates moved the other way, would that not push that lever more out to where it would break the plates right there in the stock setting?
15. Why then would not Y be that growth out, pushing the pressure plate? Thus the HD spring change at the pressure plate?
16. Why I think we can go back to our first step where the KAK first bled the amigos? Air apparent?



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Hub


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RE: Why threadlocker on one clutch cover bolt?
08/13/11 12:06 PM

Correct, slave to C-clamp, C-clamp to slave, you pick, same page. Open a nipple at the master or lower the rez so you fill what is going to fill from the slave. Better you watch the bubbles so we know for sure it purged backassword.

You're not going to ass it up backwards are you?



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