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Thread: Twist of The Wrist I and II?

Created on: 04/13/12 01:58 PM

Replies: 28

Kruz


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Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/13/12 1:58 PM

How many have read this excellent tome by former racer Keith Code? What did you get out of it? I've been on sportbikes about 6 years now and I'd say about 90% of it I had figured out on my own or learned from other riders.

There are a few points however that I am trying to incorporate into my riding style. I think the books are helpful but there is still no replacement for miles in the bank.

One thing I did notice, a lot of the info is track oriented, some of it transfers to the street and back roads rider and some might get you into trouble.

He talks a lot about survival reactions that will get you into trouble and how to defeat them, like target fixation, that's good stuff. His discussion of choosing reference points works on a track but won't help much on a fast, flowing road you've never been down before. Different skill set involved there and you must hold back more in reserve.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Grn14


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/13/12 2:05 PM

Ya...I read both right after I got my zx12...been several years now.Also got that Nick Lenatsh book..."sport riding techniques"...that's a good one also.Good stuff in those to get ya tuned in to the characteristics of a modern sportbike...ya.Amazing how many riders don't even know what countersteering is and how to benefit from it(or stay alive using it...though everybody DOES it.)

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zxinit


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/13/12 2:20 PM

I have read Twist of the Wrist 2. Found it informative, but like yourself Kruz, found I was already doing a fair amount of what is covered. Still worth reading if you can pull the useful data out for street riding.

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/13/12 10:00 PM

I'm starting to use some of his stuff and it works. Pivot steering is one that I tried tonight for the first time and it solves the problem of running wide in the high speed corners, almost like power steering assist.

Here's some of the stuff I'm using on every ride now:

Throttle up at the turn apex .1 to .2 g to transfer load to the rear tire, settles the suspension and gives optimum front rear weight bias for a great off corner drive.

Smoothly rolling the throttle all the way to the stop as you lift the bike off the apex.

Late, quick turn in to lessen your lean angle and get the bike upright and on the gas as soon as possible. I picked up my corner speed from 40 to 50 mph in a sharp 90 degree left hander just by waiting a split second longer before rolling it in.

Using front brake only, I love this one, much better control of the bike on corner entry.

Staying loose and relaxed on the controls to avoid unwanted steering inputs from bumps. I have had to consciously force myself to let up on the deathgrip on the bars but you get so much smoother when you're not fighting the bike.

Ther's a bunch more, you just have to practice the stuff every time you ride until it is second nature.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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bgordon

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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 10:27 AM

Throttle up at the turn apex .1 to .2 g to transfer load to the rear tire, settles the suspension and gives optimum front rear weight bias for a great off corner drive.

There is the apex and there is the slowest point in the corner. These are not always at the same location. I would suggest that it is at the slowest point in the corner where you start to smoothly increase power as you start to decrease lean angle. This is not always at the apex of the corner.

Staying loose and relaxed on the controls to avoid unwanted steering inputs from bumps. I have had to consciously force myself to let up on the deathgrip on the bars but you get so much smoother when you're not fighting the bike.

You don't want to lean your weight on the bars/controls at all, except under heavy braking (and even then try to absorb most of the deceleration with your knees hard into your gas tank -- Stompgrips help a lot). A "deathgrip on the bars" will kill any input that you could be getting from the front end of the bike.

Just my $.02 worth... -bg

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 10:35 AM

The pivot steering technique really works I'n the big speed sweepers if you're running wide. I call the effect Aero-steering because the high speed aerodynamic forces pull you back on the bike and ease up the countersteering pressure on the inside bar causing you to run wide. I've noticed this effect the most I'n the fast sweepers above about 120 mph.

Pressing down hard on the outside footpeg creates an action-reaction pair that forces the inside bar forward, increasing countersteer and tightening the line. It's automtatic, press down on that outside peg and your bike leans into the turn, it's like your steering with your foot.

I was playing with this earlier this morning and it gives you the confidence to stay on the gas without drifting wide. Try it, it works!



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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bgordon

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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 10:42 AM

Interesting. I would have thought pressing down hard on the inside peg would do that...

I'll try it. -bg

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 1:00 PM

That's what I always thought until I read Twist of the Wrist II. I think there's a lot of things that are counterintuitive about riding a motorcycle. Even counter steering seems counterintuitive until you under stand the principals of gyroscopic precession, then it makes perfect sense.

Anyway, a great book and even an experienced rider can learn something from it.


* Last updated by: Kruz on 4/14/2012 @ 4:50 PM *



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Grn14


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 1:20 PM

You know...I've tried that 'weighting the inside peg' deal several times.I have to say...what I noticed with that...I wasn't actually(it seemed anyway) necessarily 'getting more weight' on that peg,but rather,the mass of my bodyweight moving to the inside more by pushing down and leaning in with it(which I guess is the same thing?).IDK...seemed that way to me.Course..the real racers(BG included)will have a much better idea about riding nuances than I would.Every turn presents a different set of opportunities to find 'another' way to take em.Speed...lean...body position.They're never the same in any given corner.Throttling,decelling,braking,shifting...all a dance.

In a straight line,pushing down on either peg will lean the bike whichever way,but (to me)...it didn't induce a turn.So I'm not so sure that weighting the peg on a curve is actually 'increasing' the turnability of the bike.Countersteering is the main force going on....right?Besides...weighting that peg means you have to angle you body more vertical,to push down on that peg...even if it's a small amount.Try it on a straight...you'll see what I mean.Stand up on your bike...and push down on either side peg.To push down on either side,you have to get your body position more upright,and kind of 'leaned away'from what your actually trying to do,which is get the bike leaned in further.Your body will naturally attempt to get in the inside part of the lean,and as it does,the bike will want to increase the lean angle,but it won't neccessarily try to 'turn'.That's what I found anyway.With your knees bent,and your torso and all tucked it and leaning into the inside,it's very hard to add weight to that inside peg,unless you get your body over the side even MORE.Which basically,gets the mass going lower and further down into the apex or whatever the radius is allowing.Which in turn,will cause the lean angle to increase...which allows for more speed...and so on...until your reaching the max G's that your tires can handle.It's pretty risky(to me anyway) to get skewed on the bike and sacrifice bar inputs over body position...but the pros know how to do it.I'm no pro...I don't intend to do what they're doing.

I think(for me anyway)the main goal is to feel the oneness of the mass of the bike,how it's responding in the curve,and trying to allow it to do what it naturally does.That's the thrill for me...to be finely relaxed yet pushing and letting the bike have it's way.It will track and ride excellently with small inputs and light controlling.You can feel it when it's really in it's element....apart from you being on it.That's what I LOVE about these big sportbikes....experiencing the design characteristics and rolling with it.Pushing it.Trusting it.Having a lighter bike to me just isn't the same.I like the feeling of my bike's mass and all while rollin hard.It has a very secure feel to it.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/14/2012 @ 1:42 PM *

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Rook


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 3:05 PM

Interesting. I would have thought pressing down hard on the inside peg would do that...

That's what I always thought until I read Twist of the Wrist II.

In a straight line,pushing down on either peg will lean the bike whichever way,but (to me)...it didn't induce a turn.So I'm not so sure that weighting the peg on a curve is actually 'increasing' the turnability of the bike.

Grn, they are talking about weighing the peg on the OUTSIDE of the corner to make the bike turn to the inside. Like bg and I, you have stood over to the inside peg to corner. Obviously there is a weight shift to the inside if you are weighing the inside peg and that does have a small effect on turning. Yes, leaning the bike/countersteering has a much greater effect on cornering than leaning your weight as professor Kruz has proven in his postulate of lean angle/weight distibution/and now tire grip coefficients/ wasn't there something else? YES, surface conditions/ and after all is said and done, the most important aspect of all, what the rider is the most comfortable doing.

The idea of weighing the outside peg would seem to be a bit more effective way to distribute your weight to the inside. If you are standing on the OUTSIDE, and leaning to the INSIDE, that means you are raising your center of gravity. You are maximizing the effect of your bodyweight by increasing the leverage that gravity will exert upon it. Same principal as using a longer handled wrench. Also, you are setting a comfortable countersteering position by bridging from your outside foot to your inside hand. It all falls into place. I will try as well.

Weighing the inside peg entails hanging off low to the inside. I guess you could stand tall on the inside peg but if you are also leaning to the inside you are setting the stage for parting company with your bike.


* Last updated by: Rook on 4/14/2012 @ 3:07 PM *



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Rook


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 3:09 PM

.....and I have a sore knee so I can't do any heavy knee bends past 90 degrees anyway. Good squatting form.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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Rook


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 3:10 PM

...and plantar fascitous as well. I'm a mess.



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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 5:05 PM

Yep, weighting the OUTSIDE footpeg, not the inside. Sounded crazy to me when I first read the book but when you try it out it works. Rook is correct there,you have far better leverage pushing across your body from outside foot to inside hand on the bar. If you think about it, pushing from the inside peg is more up than forward. When you push from the outside across, you're power or steering torque is greatly increased.

The best part of this technique is it is not necessary to apply a counter steering force at the bars with your hand, when you push off the outside peg, the force is applied directly to the bar across your body. It's the darndest sensation, like you were pushing the inside bar forward and tightening your bikes line by stepping on a foot pedal. I think I'll rename it foot steering...lol.

BTW doesn't work on cruisers, pegs are forward; works best with rearsets.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Rook


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/14/12 11:29 PM

think of reaching across the bike with your whole body. You push up on the outside peg, and that energy transfers to your inside hand. I haven' tried it yet but it sounds like it makes sense. What I am envisioning is actually going to cause the rider's body weight o be transferred to the inside but the weight is up high. Not hanging off low on the inside.



08 MIDNIGHT SAPPHIRE BLUE ZX-14 Now Deceased, will be resurected 2024 ZX-14R bran friggin NEW!

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alg8er


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/15/12 1:39 AM

I took Keith Code's California Superbike School back in '91 with my ZX11. The class was at Road America, unfortunately he doesn't travel too much out of Cali anymore. Awesome day. There are also Twist of the Wrist 1 and 2 videos on DVD.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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Monte70


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/15/12 8:12 PM

I have Twist of the Wrist II on DVD and I found it helpful in some areas. I use to experience pretty much every "survival reaction" back then and it helped me in breaking those. I think it's worth while to give it a watch no matter how long you've been riding.

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/16/12 7:20 AM

Right now, I'm having trouble. I had developed a smooth and fairly rapid riding style over the years and now I'm becoming not as smooth. I have too many of those TOTW tips playing in my head to focus on just riding my bike. Do this, do that, hang off, weight the outside peg, roll on .2 g acceleration with the throttle as you lean to max etc., etc. It's messing with my head big time and I'm finding it hard to stay focused.

If you've been riding a long time, you've probably already found your groove that works for you so this stuff should probably be taken in small doses.



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Rook


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/16/12 10:00 AM

theory is great but no substitute for practice. It's really amazing when you think that men were sent to the moon and back and that was mostly all theory and calculation. We all do what we discover to work for us in practice.



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Grn14


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/16/12 1:57 PM

Kruz Kruz....man...you KNOW how to ride...just go do what feels good while yer rollin.You know how it feels when yer 'in the groove',and how to countersteer and enter a corner.You KNOW all this and how it feels.Take a breath...relax....ride yer spaceship....fast,slow...hit that corner,roll in...don't sweat the book stuff.It's okay IMO to read about all these techniques about a RACE GUY making lots of money selling books...nothing wrong at all with that.But really...YOU know how to ride.C'mon man...ease up on the 'having to do this or that to get this or that" deal.Slow down a bit then,and feel the bike again.You're fine Bro..Just ride and go with it.The main thing to remember is this.......PUSH RIGHT, GO RIGHT.PUSH LEFT, GO LEFT.That's what's gonna save ya in the bottom line.COUNTERSTEER.Stay in the saddle and lean with yer bike.This aint Willow Springs Bro!!!OR...the Isle of Man.Ferget the rest of it unless it makes ya feel BETTER about your riding.If it's NOT making you feel good about YOU while riding...ditch it.You aint in competition with ANY of yer buds.So forget that also.That'll get ya killed.Ride your ride and race yerself.You're fine man...just have fun.


* Last updated by: Grn14 on 4/16/2012 @ 1:59 PM *

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/17/12 8:11 PM

That's it Grn, just ride your bike, the tips are fine if you're having a problem but each of us develops our own unique style.

This riding game is all in the mind, if you feel good you ride well, if not you're going to choke. If I have a lot on my mind, I get out of that groove and stiffen up. Need to stay relaxed and loose and let her rip!



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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Grn14


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/17/12 10:44 PM

There ya go!

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alg8er


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/18/12 7:02 PM

Kruz; Don't try to do too much at once. Try a new technique, practice it a while. If you like it, add it to your database, and keep practicing till you're comfortable with it. Then try the next one. It's not like you have to quit riding soon, so you have to try everything right away.



Before your criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, when you do criticize them, you're a mile away and have their shoes.

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dragking


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/19/12 12:33 AM

yep, I only do one at the time! Right now: 1 hand steering. I use my left hand/arm for steering and right hand/arm for braking and modulate the throttle. I'm not quite use to the pulling (going right) but I'm getting smoother in the corners!!! I read a Twist of the Wrist but Total Control by Lee Parks was more informative. Total Control is less track oriented than a Twist of the Wrist.



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Grn14


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/19/12 12:49 AM

Now if you guys would just get a throttlemiester...you could practice your 'hands off' riding...testing how your bodyposition actually causes different chassis behavior in a given situation.It'll increase your trust in exactly how well the 14 is engineered to track straight...whether leaned in or not.How it truly responds to bumps and road conditions all by itself...without any rider inputs to the bars at all.She's an incredibly stable machine....and you can also see for yourselves just how little body position has to do with turning....


don't get me wrong...I'm not talking about riding without hands over dangerous conditions....deep grooves or anything.But riding over decent road surfaces...without holding on...very interesting.You will notice a possible newfound feeling about your finely weighed and balanced 14.

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Kruz


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RE: Twist of The Wrist I and II?
04/19/12 7:08 AM

....and you can also see for yourselves just how little body position has to do with turning....

Right Grn, the math says the difference is small and my on bike experiments are in agreement with the math. A lot of folks are convinced that body hang off makes a huge difference. I don't know where they get these ideas.

Next big craze will be you can knock off two seconds a lap by dangling your foot off the inside peg Rossi style.



2021 Aprilia RSV4 2020 BMW S1000RR 2016 ZX-10R KRT 2016 959 Panigale Red 2015 CBR1000RR SP Repsol 2011 ZX-10R Ebony 2009 ZX-6R Lime Green 2006 ZX-14 Red 2004 VTX 1300C Candy Red "For we walk by faith and not by sight" II Corinthians 5:7

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