Hi all,

I have a 2011 zx14 which is mostly stock, aside from a slip on exhaust.

I have a PCV installed, and from a dyno run found my power is a little down, but the afr is mostly ok.

I am considering getting a wideband autotune kit, and was wondering if anyone can give me an understanding of what I'll gain from that.

Mostly the bike is a commuter bike, but it does see the track a couple of times a year.

When I had the dyno run done, they did mention that there is some power left on the table and a custom map could help.

How close to a custom map will an autotune come, and will it work ok with the difference in riding usage? Is it plug and play, or will I need to spend time adjusting settings to get the best out of it.

Cheers
Chris

* Last updated by: chrispetersnz on 8/26/2024 @ 8:13 PM *

Autotune requires a very methodical approach and a lot of your attention during riding if you are going to save the trims it generates. If you don't save the trims, Autotune is going to overwrite them. The trims do not consistently become more perfect each time they are overwritten unless you ride the bike accordingly and this is definitely not ordinary riding. "Ordinary riding" is on and off throttle, constant change of rpm. Autotune requires that one throttle position be maintained throughout the rpm range it is capable of. For example, starting at 3000 rpm, the 14 will rise to 9,500 rpm if you hold 20% throttle (that is just my estimate for the purpose of discussion). SO, you start your tuning run at 3000 rpm, snap to 20% throttle and hold it until the rpm tops at 9500 rpm. Then, you cut throttle (cut, not roll off gently) OR you use an Auto Tune switch to shut the unit OFF. If you allow the engine to enter any of the cells in the map that you just did a nice clean run for, the trims will be over written. There are a lot of things about ordinary riding like reducing throttle position and exhaust reverberations that produce worse trims, not better. The idea is to get the trims from your good tuning run applied to the map before they can be overwritten. Autotune doesn't save your trims for you, you need to do it yourself. Autotune does update your trims for you but as said, ordinary riding doesn't produce good trims.

Secondly, Auto Tune is slow compared to most common AFR self tuners on automobiles. Auto Tune samples 12 times/second compared to a modern Automobile's system which samples 300 or more times/second. The Automobile will get hit the target AFR in a split second. Autotune is lucky to produce a trim that is 60% closer to achieving the target AFR. If you saved the trim from your previous run, Auto Tune will use that as the starting point for the next run. It doesn't need to do the work all over again as long as you saved it. SO, second run, Auto Tune gets about 70-80% closer to achieving the target AFR. You have to save that to your map so it doesn't get over written. Now Auto Tune has a pretty easy job of finding the exact trim needed to achieve the target AFR. One more run, maybe two and Auto Tune is generating mostly 1s and zeros for trims which basically means no fuel adjustment, the engine is running at the target AFR.

Third, you will be doing multiple runs on the road at very high speed if you want to tune the whole map. In the example of 20% throttle, how long does it take to hit the cruising speed (rpm stabilized for throttle position) at 20% throttle. If you start at 3000 rpm, it's going to take about a mile of road and probably 20 seconds doing over 100 mph before the rpm stabilizes at about 9500. Again, those speeds and time are hypothetical but you get the point. Doing 100% throttle tuning runs are a lot faster and easier and there's a lot less chance anyone will see you doing anything illegal. The small TPs require a lot of road and are very high risk, not that doing triple digits for a short duration is safe by any means.

Fourth, you need a good map to start from. Auto Tune does create trims but it requires target AFRs for every cell in the map. Most maps have several target AFRs throughout the map. I do not know the reason behind this, that is according to the tuners knowledge of the bike. For example, something like 13.5 is about the optimum AFR for peak hp but richer AFR numbers may better torque at lower rpm. You don't want to experiment with finding the best AFR numbers, you just go with the AFR table of a trusted map file.

Sounds complicated, methodical, not fun? Right! It's interesting, it's not fun. It's dangerous too. A dyno tune is a lot easier and safer. A bike would be tuned on the dyno using pretty close to the same method I've just briefly (yeah, this is brief) described. Auto Tune does not work by "just riding the bike."

Auto Tune does work maintain a target AFR when cruising. The reason is because you are maintaining one TP and one RPM and that gives Auto Tune the time it needs to hone in on the perfect trim. In reality though, I never maintain the same TP, even when I maintain the same speed. That might work on a perfectly flat and straight road but not on any highways I've ridden.

I did it all 8 years ago according to the instructions of highly respected tuner we have as a member of this forum. He wasn't around enough to give every detail but here's what I figured out. This info was based on my experience with the Gen1. I believe the Gen2 has a little leaner AFR for peak hp. Have at 'er if you want.

https://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=82EE3378-978F-4244-17A47B554179390E&show=0

Final note: You have slipons that potentially increase hp by about 8 or 9. Whatever extra hp you have on top is definitely not goning to be noticed except when you compare dyno sheets. I had a full system on my Gen1 and it didn't feel more powerful after tuning. I'm just being realistic. None of us can ride the bike at those rpms long enough or often enough to tell the difference in 5 hp let alone the 2 or three you might be missing out on. That's for highly competitive racing. I did notice amazingly improved performance way down low. I ride in that zone all the time. 6th gear, 100% throttle, the bike pulled hard all the way down at 2000 rpm. I probably could have tuned for lower but what would be the point? I know for certain the engine would have bogged very badly under the same conditions/stock.

https://youtu.be/0ayQ4nZN86k?si=LtCS9B6foeSB3sBe

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/27/2024 @ 4:50 PM *

Going with the Wideband2 is a better choice than Auto Tune. The WB2 has a few more features and it's only a little more expensive than Auto Tune. I've heard of affordable, stand alone tuners for motorcycles that are vastly better than DJ Auto Tune. Apparently, they maintain the AFR virtually stable at all times. I learned that on the busa forum and I don't remember the name of the tuning system the guy was talking about.

If all you're after is to maintain a steady AFR while cruising, Auto Tune is pretty much plug and play after you make a few selections between the tuner and the PC5.

Thanks for the detailed reply.

I am definitely not overly concerned about gaining those few extra hp, more interested in improving the afr at cruise and improving the responsiveness at low rpm. I have noticed the bogging in top gear when going full throttle from low speed, and while it's not a problem, it is something I was wondering if I can fix.

I managed to price the wideband2 with autotune, for around $500NZ, while a full custom map starts around $1k NZ which is why I am considering the auto tune over custom map.

Considering the effort that will be involved to sort out the trims, and the risk associated with it, maybe the cost savings don't actually add up.

* Last updated by: chrispetersnz on 8/28/2024 @ 2:26 AM *

If your concern is the low rpm performance in higher gears, that should not be too dangerous. You can easily tune that without breaking the speed limit. You can tune only the cells you want to tune. It is a learning process though. It's also going to require you to carry a laptop on the bike while you are tuning. I'd say the cost savings depend mostly on how interested you are in tuning.

The tuning aspect is definitely interesting to me, which is partly why I started looking at this process instead of a custom map. I also considered building a canbus data gathering tool, but then realized the factory sensor is only narrowband so I wouldn't get the data I want.

If I do buy the wideband kit, does it just replace the factory o2 sensor and use the same plug, or do I need to somehow eliminate the factory one?

* Last updated by: chrispetersnz on 8/28/2024 @ 12:16 PM *

If you're very interested in tuning, self tuning might be for you then. It will require a lot of your attention while you do the tuning. The danger comes into play when you want to tune for high speeds. The danger I'm speaking of is mainly police seeing you do those high speeds. I found it impossible to keep a good watch for police and do my tuning runs at the same time. I did my best but I had a couple incidences that could have gotten me in big trouble. For example, you're doing a tuning runs, they're all illegal, you want to get them right so you don't need to do even more illegal runs. You see a car ahead in the distance, you're accelerating to 130 mph, you still have 4000 rpm to gather trims on. Do you roll off, let the car pass and start over? Or do you keep going passing the car at high speed? I kept going. It ended up the car was a cop.

I have the plain Auto Tune module from Dynojet. I imagine the WB2 installs the same way only with a few extra wires to facilitate the additional features. I had the bung for my Auto Tune O2 sensor welded onto the pipe. The Gen1 ZX-14 has no stock O2 sensor in the US. My Hayabusa did have a stock O2 sensor but it was deleted by connecting a terminator plug that came with my aftermarket exhaust. If NZ Gen1 ZX-14s have a stock O2 sensor, that might need to be left in place in order for the bike to run properly. If so, you would need to weld in a second bung for the WB2 O2 sensor. The bung should not be located too close to the headers or the heat will burn the sensor out quickly. Also, not too close to the muffler or you will get interference from exhaust reverberations. On my 4-2-1 aftermarket exhaust, the O2 bung for Auto Tune was located on the piece of pipe where the the two join into one, below and in back of the clutch cover. I would have preferred it to be placed an inch farther downstream to sample exhaust from all cylinders a bit better. Dynojet told me that is not crucial, you will even get good results sampling from just one cylinder. The place my O2 sensor was located seemed to give good results.

OR you can just sent your Ecu to Ivan and be done with the PCV.

Eliminating the o2 sensor is no longer an issue, as I have purchased some delkevic headers, and they seem to have 3 o2 bungs. I'm in the fence about the autotune just because of the legal risk, and also the amount of time it will involve.

I've been looking for local tuners, and there is a nearby mechanic with a dyno who can make a map, so I'll probably go down that path initially. I still might do the wideband auto tune as well, but right now I'm lacking the time to do this properly.

Thanks for all the tips and advice, will post again once it's all done.

I would anticipate possibly needing to replace the O2 sensor often if it's located on a header. The exhaust is pretty hot there. If the stock O2 sensor is on a header, maybe that will be fine but the sensor used with Auto Tune (Bosch) would probably burn out. ...at least that's what I remeber being told. I saw a photo of all four head pipes equipped with O2 sensors though. Tuning/cylinder is an option with a Dyno Jet setup although I don't know exactly how it works. Do you need 4 Auto Tune modules? Do you need 4 PC5s? ...or do you do separate runs to gather trims for each cylinder? ...anyway, I think it was generally accepted that tuning/cylinder is not necessary. I was told even sampling exhaust from one cylinder was fine for establishing AFR for all four cylinders. The only question is ---how long will the sensor last if it's located that close to the manifold? The stock O2 sensor on my Hayabusa was located on the RH side of the collector. I probably mentioned before, there was a terminator plug included with my Tsukigi full system and it allowed deletion of the stock O2 sensor on my Hayabusa. I was planning to locate the busa's O2 sensor bung for Auto Tune a bit farther back than the collector, pretty close to where the muffler fits onto the pipe near the location of the rear shock.