Hub's Answer to WillsZX14R from 2016;
(The topic from '16 is getting knee down in general)

Hub quoting and Replying to Will's post:
RE; ''Getting a knee down? Subject of Conversation''
10/19/16 12:56 PM

1.) Have you always wanted to get a knee down street or track but haven't yet?
No. It was a necessity. Had the boots refurbished a lot. It helped a little, but still went thru scrubbing the sides down.

2.) Yes, you've gotten the knee down on the street and/or track?
Street wise, held off someone, boom, ruined a pair of jeans, plus skin burn.

3.) You really don't care about getting a knee down?
Again, body off bike, knees as feelers. A helpful gauge.

4.) You've tried but fear you're going to fall?
Nope. It becomes comfortable and is a part of the racing game.

5.) You wish you knew how to get the knee down?
The hot setup back in my era was to armorall the seat and butt.

The ideal combo is to scrape pegs, scrape knees at the same time. If you don't have that going on, change hobbies.

--------------------

I guess my question (with background to follow) is more
to the point of scrapping STOCK PEGS as a gauge of limit
for safety and 'need', to be that far leaned over, and what
speeds does or should the peg scraping occur or be very
close to occurring, and how tight of a radius is it applied.
I'm not too concerned about actually dragging-knee one way
or the other, though most of us including myself do see
it as pretty cool.
----
On my Gold Wing in parking lots I was scrapping pegs
routinely, but that was probably at only 30 degree angles
due to it not being a sport bike pegs scrape
at much lesser angles.
On my ZX14R
In the same parking lot at 30mph in the same oval
patterns, I'm nowhere near scraping pegs, my oval
track is about a tenth of a mile around.
In 35mph (Sinage'd warning-zones) I'm doing 65 to 70 and
still don't seem to be anywhere near to peg scraping.

I think what Hub was saying about peg scraping and
knee-dragging-simultaneously sounds about right.
--
I hang off my bike in the parking-lot track,
in both of the two corners when riding 25 to 33 mph,
maybe I could go faster on the 'track'
if I didn't lean off the bike as much, bringing the bike
down to a greater angle.
--
I'm going to put some white fingernail-polish-stripes
on my tires like I had done with my Gold Wing so I can
see how much of the tire I'm using in turns, this am.
Maybe what's left of the stripes will be a clue.
. Overall I think I'm asking; how far
leaned over (stock pegs, not rear sets) can I be
while maintaining good or safe-enough grip.

* Last updated by: Stratovarious on 1/7/2026 @ 7:43 AM *

Update 8 AM;

The 'Chicken Strips' Front to back or where
the polish is still intact is 16mm / .630'' / 5/8''
front and back treads.

Would this generally equate to me being able
to increase speed in my 1/10th mile track until
I'm using the other 16 mm of tread, at which point
the extended nubs on the pegs would be scraping
or close to it? Max, 'safe' lean.
I'm sure there are other factors, but just a
general guideline?
Something I forgot to mention too is that my bike
is lowered about 1.25''.

I've never dragged a knee or a peg but I've dragged my exhaust. I've heard of people dragging the lower fairing where there's that slight bulge on the RH side. I'd rather drag a knee before any hard parts. Hard parts might catch on the pavement or lever the tires off the road. A knee can adjust to the lean angle (assuming it's protected by suitable gear). The knee also indicates how far the bike is leaning because it must be pulled back inward as the lean angle increases. Moto GP riders aren't reaching out with their knee at all when at full lean. They have to pull the knee back inward because there's no more room between the track and the bike. The knee is still dragging because theres nowhere to pull it out of the way at that severe of an angle.

I hang off my bike in the parking-lot track,
in both of the two corners when riding 25 to 33 mph,
maybe I could go faster on the 'track'
if I didn't lean off the bike as much, bringing the bike
down to a greater angle.

The more the bike leans, the more likely it is to lose traction. If you lean yourself, you don't have to lean the bike as far. But if you want to lose chicken strips, the way to do it is lean the bike. I got down to about a quarter inch chicken strip on the rear and I did lean off. The front had a much larger chicken strip than the rear.

I'm going to put some white fingernail-polish-stripes
on my tires like I had done with my Gold Wing so I can
see how much of the tire I'm using in turns, this am.

If the tread of the tire isn't roughened, that part of the tread has never touched the road. You can use a stripe of white paint but all you really need to do is look at the chicken strips. I doubt if an eighth inch wide stripe of paint across the tread is going to cause you to slip but people do warn of cornering hard over the paint stripes on the road. Personally, I'd avoid stacking the odds in favor of slipping.

Overall I think I'm asking; how far
leaned over (stock pegs, not rear sets) can I be
while maintaining good or safe-enough grip.

It can depend on the suspension set up and the muffler and tire pressure might have something to do with it too. Cornering clearance can also depend on small humps in the road. The lower bend of the muffler is what dragged first on my Gen1 but I did have rearsets. I never dragged a foot peg but I can tell you, Vortex rearsets adjusted to their highest and farthest back position should allow for a greater lean angle. The bottom tip of the rearsets are approximately an inch higher off the ground than stock. Most importantly, the rearset foot pegs are a whole inch shorter than stock pegs. ...so not only are they higher, they're not reaching out at the road as far when the bike's in a hard lean. However, my muffler is sticking out pretty much and it's situated a lot lower so it will definitely scrape before the foot peg. I just had a quick look at the foot peg/stock exhaust configuration of my 14R. It doesn't look as though it would offer superior cornering clearance to the Tsukigi exhaust I have on my Gen1. The stock exhaust sticks out about the same amount. The stock exhaust will interfere with both left and right cornering where the 4-2-1 Tsukigi has no exhaust on the left. The stock foot peg pivots which would allow the bike to lean farther if the peg did touch down. Rearsets don't pivot. I refer back to initial comment about dragging hard parts. I don't think it's safe.

Would this generally equate to me being able
to increase speed in my 1/10th mile track until
I'm using the other 16 mm of tread, at which point
the extended nubs on the pegs would be scraping
or close to it? Max, 'safe' lean.

The smallest chicken strips I ever had from road riding was about maybe a quarter inch on the RH of the rear tire. I had no chicken strip from track riding but that was with very low tire pressure. In both cases, my exhaust scraped before the rearset A quick look at the stock 14R, hold a straightedge from centerline of front & rear tire tread to bottom tip of foot peg. This represents the maximum lean angle before something touches. The foot peg will drag before the exhaust even if the feeler pin is removed. That's with no rider weight on the bike. Rider weight wouldn't change the spacial relationship between the foot peg and the exhaust. It would change the relationship from the exhaust and the centerline of the treads. Lower the bike, the exhaust comes closer to crossing the line from the tread centerline to tip of foot peg, the max lean angle. Rider weight also lowers the bike. This all came from experimenting with measurements on my Gen1. It was the closest I could get to assessing the max lean angle without having rider weight on the bike and the bike standing vertically of course. When the bike leans, it actually isn't riding on that center line of the tread, it's riding a few inches out to the side of the center of the tread. This might seem to improve lean angle clearance but you have to remember, the tread of the tire also forms a smaller circle the farther out to the edge you go. This lowers the bike...so the smaller diameter plus farther away from center probably more or less cancel any advantage or disadvantage each may offer.

my bike
is lowered about 1.25''.

If your bike is lower, you have less cornering clearance. You might find a way to raise the foot pegs but there's no way to raise the exhaust. Raise the pegs and you'd be getting closer to my situation where the exhaust drags before the pegs. Vortex rearsets add about one inch of height at the bottom tip of the peg. They also protrude an inch less than the stocks. The exhaust can't be tucked inward out of the way so now it's the victim when the bike leans far enough. You moved the foot pegs out of the way but you can't move the exhaust.

---

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipNBXBxVe7SgQhZUK00kxlNu-3PsiShnVwgbJjh1

Would wear the boots down and duct taped them heavily.

Knee down are tight turns, pegs pivoted and grinding to a sharp point. Some guy complained they were too sharp. Not about to happen in a parking lot. Sure you could try it, but might take a few drops figuring out the limits.

You'd have to have a deep curve with a lot of degrees so when you're at the apex, the boot hit before the peg. Couldn't tell the radius when my foot dragged my toe under the peg sort of... fucking hurt. That's where I slowed it down to see the boot touch while turning in the clutch-less video.

I would more sit upright, force the turn and start tagging the pegs. Knee down is more for fast sweepers, or tight turns.

---

The more the bike leans, the more likely it is to lose traction. If you lean yourself, you don't have to lean the bike as far. But if you want to lose chicken strips, the way to do it is lean the bike. I got down to about a quarter inch chicken strip on the rear and I did lean off. The front had a much larger chicken strip than the rear.

Right, I'm not to worried about lessening
the Chicken-strips, rather looking for
some type of a safety-guide to alert me that;
'this is far enough, don't lean any further'

If the tread of the tire isn't roughened, that part of the tread has never touched the road. You can use a stripe of white paint but all you really need to do is look at the chicken strips. I doubt if an eighth inch wide stripe of paint across the tread is going to cause you to slip but people do warn of cornering hard over the paint stripes on the road. Personally, I'd avoid stacking the odds in favor of slipping.

Yeah, this is why I try to use DOT nail polish.

Seriously though, that does make sense that there could be
an issue, but the 3'' parking space stripes scare me
a hella lot more than the small bit stripe I put
crossways on my tires. The first stripe I put on
I cleaned off right away, realizing that the strip
could double as a valve stem marker, so I
made the marks at those locations. I realize I can
see the chicken strips, but due the gradient and
the fact that I start riding before daylight, I
wanted something with more contrast, better visibility.
---

Would wear the boots down and duct taped them heavily.

Knee down are tight turns, pegs pivoted and grinding to a sharp point. Some guy complained they were too sharp. Not about to happen in a parking lot. Sure you could try it, but might take a few drops figuring out the limits.

You'd have to have a deep curve with a lot of degrees so when you're at the apex, the boot hit before the peg. Couldn't tell the radius when my foot dragged my toe under the peg sort of... fucking hurt. That's where I slowed it down to see the boot touch while turning in the clutch-less video.

I would more sit upright, force the turn and start tagging the pegs. Knee down is more for fast sweepers, or tight turns.

The photo link isn't working on my end.

I gather overall from reading yours and Rook's posts
that I'm probably reasonably safe leaning up to
the point that I'm scraping pegs, and I'm not there
yet so I guess all is good so far.
-
I put rollers on the end of my gold wing pegs
a while back, cause I was scraping those pegs routinely in
the parking lot but not on the highway.
(I shortened the pegs in order to accommodate the rollers so the
contact distance was the same as with the stock pegs)

I gather overall from reading yours and Rook's posts
that I'm probably reasonably safe leaning up to
the point that I'm scraping pegs, and I'm not there
yet so I guess all is good so far.

I think you're safest not leaning at all. A bike will ride in a straight line without a rider indefinitely as long as it maintains its speed. It'll even roll over objects and bump immovable objects with glancing blows and the steering will still return to dead ahead keeping the bike upright. Bikes want to stand up vertically up to the point where they slow down enough for the wheels start loosing gyroscopic force. Then the steering starts to turn, the bike leans, the steering falls over to the other direction the bike leans the other way...and so on, getting progressively worse until the lean and correct is too dramatic to resist gravity.

That's why you're safest (from crashing) if you do your leaning through low speed corners on the road. Many thirty mph corners can be taken at about 60. You're going fast enough to keep the gyroscopic effect of the wheels while working against centrifugal force at the same time. It's just a lot less likely you'll win a battle purely against gravity. Then there are the technical corners marked 25 mph and you better not try taking them much faster than that. They're challenging, fun and safe from getting a ticket (but good luck if you take that to court). You're really starting to need to deal with gravity at that speed and it's a lot more of a trick to not fall over. The smaller corners on county highways are the beast because you can take them fast, you need to lean and you have several seconds to play around with speed, lean angle, shifting your weight, acceleration...and gravity hasn't much effect on you.

As for how far the absolute limit the 14 can lean, it's when you hit the lower bend in the muffler assuming your pegs are high enough to allow that. The bend in the muffler becomes a fulcrum if you push beyond the point it touches down. At least one wheel is coming off the ground at that point and I say the rear in most cases.

Interesting question Strat. I was up until bedtime last night thinking that over.

If you're doing gymkhana, I think that's about the safest sport riding you can do but as Hub said, you're going to drop the bike ...fighting with all the forces of two wheel locomotion everyone deals with and now you have gravity to contend with too. Realistically however, are the cops going to turn a blind eye to doing 30 mph in a parking lot forever? Sounds like you've been doing it a while. I think the cops will give you a warning but they'll stop you eventually.

---

Parking lot wont cover it. You are better off finding a trackday at some race track to try and tag feeler peg extenders. This way feeling the scrape tends to make you turn upright and have plenty of space and time to stop digging into the turn.

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/555770342_24745067538457572_2217571318967485168_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=CaVf_19G3a4Q7kNvwFwrBXK&_nc_oc=Adm7aYLEIqq4p7TfBYi9wGCrfxFlFRm1nz1b2KY1CTR6ZmOp-o8xrAYGDg1oQwtZWbqpelz3-EyW9s92a2z0EycA&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&_nc_gid=ezUNldchUBSf38cyJRxHWw&oh=00_AfrbJJ1_WS8EdwYDo_2XHdYoDMkG2-12DjiD4S_hk2rZDA&oe=69663C32

https://scontent-lax3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/554925296_24745067261790933_7299796882313815139_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=127cfc&_nc_ohc=HLntLJDUMM0Q7kNvwEEo06W&_nc_oc=AdnihPp4zqYgCICX8WRoxZ3yCSa_00CCb6B9EskvF5bkt0pB7IEgpLK41vhLAerJnh99l0SZa5050eCzALHt1_WC&_nc_zt=23&_nc_ht=scontent-lax3-2.xx&_nc_gid=Wfb7GdTjFm-7KUf97PcOGg&oh=00_AfpSlrEdtZtY413D3KFSDz4Ehq791XhiFwjlD4Ckj20zLQ&oe=69664012

* Last updated by: Hub on 1/8/2026 @ 9:28 PM *

---

Realistically however, are the cops going to turn a blind eye to doing 30 mph in a parking lot forever? Sounds like you've been doing it a while. I think the cops will give you a warning but they'll stop you eventually.

Yes, they are turning blind eye, I usually start at 5
and 5:30 am and move on long before anything is open.
I had one come into the lot twice, and they drive by
routinely, I never rev the motor and don't do 30 in
1st gear.
This isn't something to be done at 7 or 8 am or during
business hours.
----

I posted many times on SM that the cautionary, yellow,
35 and 45 mph signs are NOT created equal, I became
aware of that back in about 2000, driving my dually
to work through twisties. One city, county, state
to the next and even one road or turn to the next
given the same 'value' can have a 'performance' variant
of probably 20+ mph, they all need
to be verified before even getting near extremes.
Some of the mph suggestions on those signs were
probably chosen using the dart board method.

I have one of those near me that is marked 45mph,
and when I hit it the first couple of times I was doing
45 + - and not comfortable even at that speed.
That particular corner is a tight, uphill, radius
which might not even be a constant radius.

Parking lot wont cover it. You are better off finding a trackday at some race track to try and tag feeler peg extenders. This way feeling the scrape tends to make you turn upright and have plenty of space and time to stop digging into the turn.

I guess my 'track' layout could be considered
1 turn of a go-cart track being that the oval
is about 700' in total length.
I wish there was a go-cart track nearby, I've
seen videos of moto guys using them.

So even though on the Gold Wing I was grinding
pegs and scraping exhausts at 20mph, my ZX14R
with greater lean angle limits,
on the same 'track' is under completely different
rules. Bearing in mind also that my zx has
a much greater lean capability.
---
I'll measure the width of the track, dissected,
the distance and width from going relatively strait,
to coming into a turn, that should reveal
a fair representation of the radius of the
turns, my guess is that it will be similar to
what is found at go-cart tracks.

I measured off the widest point of the oval
its about 180' , the length of my 'track'
is probably 400 + - ft.

I'm about 33mph max in the straight,
and 24 to 28+ miles in the turns, depending....
I have about 28psi in the tires, the
air temps when using the track currently are about 42f,
ground 7 to 11f , tires about 70f.

If you're not worried about tire life, I'd suggest a set of Pirelli Super Corsas. There is a softer compound and a harder compound, v4 and v5 I think. You'd have to look up which is softer. I went with the slicks. They were called Pirelli Superbike Pros some years back. The main thing is they have very stiff sidewalls and you can run very low pressure when you want. Other than that, they offer the best grip available and they are also lighter than other tires. Expensive but worth a try. If you only sport ride, they'll last a year or two. In the recent past, I've only ridden about a thousand miles each year. I go with what I like, not what lasts. Go with 190/55 or 200/55. ...it will raise the seat a quarter inch or so but it turns quicker and stays rounded longer as long as you're doing some hard cornering. I'm not saying it's going to transform your riding skill but you will feel the difference immediately. The stock size tire is every bit as good. Coupled with that stiff sidewall on the Pirelli, the higher rear tire with softer compound really makes you understand what might be possible. I don't ride to be practical so I use them and they look cooler too.

---

If you're not worried about tire life, I'd suggest a set of Pirelli Super Corsas. There is a softer compound and a harder compound, v4 and v5 I think.

I routinely need to pull onto soft shoulders out here,
my next tires need to be Pirelli Angles like
I have currently, or something else with deep tread.
My next tires will probably be Michelin's Road 6
for its deep tread pockets.
I like the idea of slicks or
close to slicks, like the Corsas,
but they won't work for me due the
wide variety of surfaces I need to ride in.

* Last updated by: Stratovarious on 1/11/2026 @ 9:18 AM *

It's probably wise to avoid slicks if you ride on dusty surfaces. I rode my Hayabusa at least twenty minutes in a massive downpour on the interstate with slicks. I was super light on throttle and brakes and kept the speed to about 50 mph. I could feel change in traction but obviously, I wasn't trying to find out. I would have stopped under an overpass if I would have come to one. I must have been considering taking an off ramp to find shelter but this was a very rural farmland area.

---

It's probably wise to avoid slicks if you ride on dusty surfaces.

Yes, exactly my thinking, I wore the OEM tires
pretty close to slicks before replacing them,
that was sketchy as fchouts.

I'd like to find another ZX14R in the future
to set up more for track use, maybe not dedicated
track, but close to it. Or get a another set of
rims and put Corsas or = on them.

I'd like to find another ZX14R in the future
to set up more for track use, maybe not dedicated
track, but close to it. Or get a another set of
rims and put Corsas or = on them.

That's what I did with my Gen1. It's fun but it doesn't make a lot of difference. I'd look for a 600 or smaller if I wanted a new riding experience.

---

That's what I did with my Gen1. It's fun but it doesn't make a lot of difference. I'd look for a 600 or smaller if I wanted a new riding experience.

I may be making a mistake going to track with this
bike, I figure on just seeing what it's like,
not trying to be Maquez, just kind of get a
feel for it.

Sure, I did it twice and would have done it a lot more if I had the money at the time. It's a lot of fun just don't be over-competitive. Run your own race. You'll probably dominate on the straightaway but watch out for turn 1. It seemed to me other riders were going faster toward the end of the day so don't get sucked in on that, just let them pass. I went faster at the beginning of the day and then I went off the track. That was my warning sign to lay it cool the rest of the day. Fortunately, it was a track on an old farm with flat terrain and not always crash barricades. Beg your pardon if I showed this already.

---

Go in summer when it's hot. There were still lots of bikes on the track when i went in April but I didn't want to go fast with the cold track. Summer was much better.

---

Go in summer when it's hot. There were still lots of bikes on the track when i went in April but I didn't want to go fast with the cold track. Summer was much better.

Yeah, but here, that would be spring, its unlikely that
we'll have any trackdays here in Summer, that's 120+ territory.

Sure, I did it twice and would have done it a lot more if I had the money at the time. It's a lot of fun just don't be over-competitive. Run your own race. You'll probably dominate on the straightaway but watch out for turn 1. It seemed to me other riders were going faster toward the end of the day so don't get sucked in on that, just let them pass. I went faster at the beginning of the day and then I went off the track. That was my warning sign to lay it cool the rest of the day. Fortunately, it was a track on an old farm with flat terrain and not always crash barricades. Beg your pardon if I showed this already.

I hadn't seen the video, good production, it was interesting.
That video auto looped through about 4 more, all good videos.
That track is scary man, nice though that there are
occasional and 'generous' grass patches in some of
the turns.
I see you were using a two piece suit, I'm recommended
the one piece, but I'm going to go with a two piece too.
I just ordered a jacket
and if it's right I'll order the matching pants.
I have to have them zippered for track days out here,
and that's not going to be a problem, I'll have a
seamstress add a YKK zipper on the back.
It was futile checking online for the right zippers,
regulations etc,
and how its put together, I was assuming it's all the
way around but now I see from a D600 Polyester jacket
that I already have now, that they are apparently zippered
in the back only, which makes sense for
production issues, it would be a bit tough to make
them zip all the way around and mate up properly, unless
custom fit, which would have to be done at a tailor.
---
Still, the aspect the track requirement is still not
real clear to me, whether zipped all the way around is
required or not, I might inquire with a track for clarification
on that.

That video auto looped through about 4 more, all good videos.

Thanks, glad you enjoyed them. That was unintended but I watched it too.

I see you were using a two piece suit, I'm recommended
the one piece, but I'm going to go with a two piece too.

Two piece is better for general use on the track and off. One piece is best for safety.

---

Two piece is better for general use on the track and off. One piece is best for safety.

Yes, that's why it was recommended,
all the trackday requirement pages that I've visited
suggest one piece for added safety but will allow two piece.
I found a super cool jacket that I can wear
day to day, plus I have a 'trick' shoulder
that could make it a major choir to get the
top portion of a one piece on when it acts up.