Since i bought my ZX14 a year ago i have spent $550 on 2 ECM's and $600 for a complete service including valve adjustment, new plugs and coolant change...come to find out the ECM's arent correct and the major service wasnt even done...am i the sucker born ever moment or have others had similiar experiences? Please feel free to comment. And Merry Christmas to all...lol

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“Life is a cruel teacher. She loves to give you the test first and the lesson later.”
? Daymond John

Yes you are. But we all are but to different levels of degree. So at this point the most important thing is what you do with this information.

Not sure how you bought incorrect ECMs. I'd say you're totally to blame on that one. But the lesson you can learn is to know your part numbers and what years are compatible. Of course, you should be able to resale them too, although it sounds most likely you overpaid for them.

As far as the servicing. It's why most of us do our own work. Unfortunately you just can't trust people to do work they promise to these days. Not that there was ever some golden era of trustworthiness in auto repair, but indeed it seems like these days it's attracting less and less people who are passionate about it vs those just looking for a decent paycheck.

I haven't had any vehicle in for any service since 2009. I've done all my own work, and you know my vehicles run pretty darn good. It's expensive (tools), and it's not for everyone (ability to follow directions/procedures, mechanical aptitude). But what I would say is you have to make certain, SOMEHOW, the work you're paying for actually gets done. And that's not always easy to do. If you can't do your own work for whatever reasons, I suggest networking and letting everyone know about your experiences at that place and try to find a better place to have your vehicle(s) worked on.

Frankly, if you learn TODAY to understand these life lessons, $1200 is cheap price for these. Many people pay much more, multiple times, before they learn these lessons.

I've had life lessons that have cost me over 6 figures. So don't feel too stupid over this.

ECM wise, it depends on the years to injector colors say. You could run an early injector with a later ECM and run too rich. Since you have the different ECU's, the loophole is to swap injectors. The telemetry remains the same.

As for the service loophole, it's fraud from the chain of command up or down. Up, that mech is getting away with it and the next chain in the link is the service manager looks the other way, to the final link is the dealer principal. There is no excuse for that bike not to be checked/inspected for something that critical.

Tuff shit it takes too long and you lose money on the job. Find another job, that or the dealer is going to lose business this gets around you pay for no work or some work done, not ALL of it! Especially the valves with this bike.

* Last updated by: Hub on 12/24/2016 @ 4:14 PM *

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Not that there was ever some golden era of trustworthiness in auto repair, but indeed it seems like these days it's attracting less and less people who are passionate about it vs those just looking for a decent paycheck.

Well, I'm pretty passionate about all this so please excuse my language or stop right here.

GDMIT!!!!! I have heard about this too many times!! You're not the first and surely not the last. I'm pretty sure there are those shops out there that actually do what they say they are doing and who don't rip people off for stuff they don't need but then again.....a good number of those are probably doing it without getting caught by anyone.

Morg, I know how long this stuff takes and I totally understand the need to charge $100/hour to run a business but these two just don't add up.. You take something like a throttle bodies sync on the 14 and there is NO WAY anyone is going to get that done in under an hour even if they do halfassed job. I mean, you'd have to be on a throttle bodies sync production line to be able to do that for a hundred bucks and make money.

So at this point the most important thing is what you do with this information.

Yeah, I'd say grit your teeth and get ready to have the bike out of service for a few weeks at a time. Do it yourself and just be patient ...or else...

you have to make certain, SOMEHOW, the work you're paying for actually gets done. And that's not always easy to do.

FUKsake---WHY WHY WHY can't we come in to see what is wrong and what you're going to do and how it's now right after the work is done????? I would pay for this. shit you should have this service free if you are paying top dollar for a mechanic!!! Let the guy charge you /hour instead of what the book says it should take There is NO REASON they can't give you a high and a low estimate!!! Valve lash check, $500! another 1200 to 2000 to adjust. That's the kind of money they need to charge if they have a good mechanic and want to still make money!! Problem is, nobody is going to pay for that quality of work. Buy a new GD bike for COL!! So the obvious answer to me is just do it myself. It's part of the price of ownership. Might as well learn and enjoy that aspect as well as riding.

Touch shit it takes too long and you lose money on the job.

That's it...to do this kind of work carefully so you know it's right takes time and time is money.

far as the ECUs, that just sucks. All I can say is get anal about everything you buy. Find out everything ask questions know what your getting even before you have it.

You should at least be able to resell the ECUs on Ebay. But the work you got reamed on, I'm afraid you just learned the hard way. Thanks for sharing and I hope this saves some other people from falling into the same trap.

Can I ask, how did you find out the shitbags didn't do what they said they did?

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The ECM's are the correct ones but the flash's on both were done incorrectly...ive found a reputable shop and he has hooked these up to the Woolich software and found the errors...

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Since i bought my ZX14 a year ago i have spent $550 on 2 ECM's and $600 for a complete service including valve adjustment, new plugs and coolant change...come to find out the ECM's arent correct and the major service wasnt even done...am i the sucker born ever moment or have others had similiar experiences? Please feel free to comment.

I was still in high school when I burnt a hole through the piston of my first dirt bike. Even though one of my friends worked as head mechanic at the local dealership, I thought the repair job ($77.00) was outrageously overpriced. To save money I ordered the repair manual and learned to do my own repairs; this is the reason I became involved in the motorcycle industry.

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Picture: early 70's, me when I still had hair, lol

I learned when I had a big sportfisher boat there are three levels of mechanics who will come work on the boat (and I did do everything I could myself.)

The $60/hr guy
The $80/hr guy
The $100/hr Guy

The $60/hr guy is probably a tweeker drug addict who will show up on time, get the work done as fast and as shity as possible and leave a quick as he can to go buy more drugs.

The $80/hr guy is probably a drunk who will show up whenever he wakes up from last night's bottle, will fall asleep on your job, tell you he has to go back to the shop for more parts and come back the next day drunk and forgot what he was doing on the boat.

The $100/hr guy shows up on time and has his name on his uniform shirt, is nice, courteous and does a great job on my boat and fixes it perfectly the 1st time and tell you the straight story and tells you everything that was wrong and he fixed and what will need service soon on or before you take it way offshore chasing Bluefin Tuna.

You need to find the "$100/hr" guy or do it yourself. THe cost for tool for almost any job is less than the labor the ripoff stealership will charge you for labor. Buy the service manual, lookup a video on youtube on the task you need to perform (or 3 or 4) and get er done yourself.

No one care about your bike like you do.

Merry Christmas

* Last updated by: cruderudy on 12/25/2016 @ 8:42 AM *

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If stang is not mechanically inclined, then I'd look for the $100 hr guy. Right now the issue is at the dealership. Get ear done and say a mouth full. The mech has to do a good job on his comeback, because you'll be watching his every move. This will straighten out the person or you get to burn him at his own game. That franchise is on the carpet as far as I'm concerned.

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Ive PM'ed the shop owner and he was concerned...he cant check all his mechanics work and said he will call me tues to discuss...

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$100/hr guy for sure. My guess is this guy will take half the time as the crackhead or drunk. Some relatives of mine are famous for hiring the crackheads to do things. Takes 4x as long, then they have to rehire someone else to fix everything the first crackhead fucked up. Amazing...these relatives, they just don't learn. By the time it's all said and done, $100/hr guy would've been matinee pricing.

My motto: I can break plastics and strip threads with the best of them.

I started as a self taught mechanic at home, then helped open a service department at a local shop. Ended up being a factory certified Technician on KTM, Triumph and Ducati. In my opinion, maybe 3 out of 10 techs in the industry do great work. The rest are varying degrees of hammer mechanics. I live 1 mile from my closest shop. Since I have no real spot to work on my bikes, when my son's Z1000 needed a major service I took it to a shop 9 miles away. They have techs that have been there for 30 years and a great reputation. Did the service, I got to chat with the tech who worked on the bike and feel they did a good job. If you're like me you don't mind paying for a job done well. It's just when you suspect corners were cut that it gets infuriating. My advice is to learn how to service your own machine or when you find a good shop with a good tech, become his best friend. Donuts, beer, whatever it takes to become known personally by the shop and it's people. It's getting even more important to find someone up to date with all the electronics on todays bikes.
Good luck

Mad

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Here's the scenario. Buy a set of allen wrenches and blue duct tape. You figure a fairing is pulled away from the line of the other fairing part, or pulled down. Another way of looking at it is, it moves up and away from the line, then swings back and out. Where a hook moves in said direction, and the hoop is a stationary guide. A parts page of said fairing piece may show it having hooks or hoops on each fairing part and guide you this way. Once the photos are taken first for hardware placement, you stick the screws and plastic washers back in the fairing holes they came out of and blue tape the threaded ends well so the hardware does not fall out of the fairing.

That gives the tech that much less work to do. Say the mech is too spooked to pull a fairing off, or why the time it takes to figure out the moves. No practice on other 14's slipping thru the guy's hands, you'll be that much up on it. The more you remove, the better you break and scratch the parts... goes with the territory. So rather you take an interest in the self-servicing, or make sure the dealer principal stays on top of the job, and let them worry about the fairing R&R you already paid for.

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Once the photos are taken first for hardware placement, you stick the screws and plastic washers back in the fairing holes they came out of and blue tape the threaded ends well so the hardware does not fall out of the fairing.

A youngster explained to me that threading bolts where they came from after disassembly is the beginner way. An experienced mechanic throws all in a cup and sorts through them when it comes time to put it back together.

I'm anal enough to keep every bolt matched to the hole it came out of. Not so much to avoid losing them or getting confused about which hole they go in but to minimize wear on the threads. No two screws are alike. LOL--I lable the screws with a sharpie so I know what hole to put them back in.

and taping or threading them back in the part makes a lot of sense if you are going to have everything disassembled for a long time.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/29/2016 @ 8:03 PM *

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I'm anal enough to keep every bolt matched to the hole it came out of.

It's more anal for me to keep the in and out rotation down to a minimum. Tightening is one thing, tearing out the threads is another. Less stress and a loss of hardware makes more sense for me.

and taping or threading them back in the part makes a lot of sense if you are going to have everything disassembled for a long time.

My point exactly. That's two anal moves not needed. It was more that the hardware stays with the plastic and the threads are left alone. It was more for the long sit and you forget where things go.

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It was more for the long sit and you forget where things go.

Also a good reason to write tutorials.

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Had ECM flash and dyno tune today...picked up 10 HP and 8 ft lbs torque...are these numbers ok for a 2008 with 22K miles...for some reason i thought that was a little low...

* Last updated by: morgstang on 1/1/2017 @ 5:07 PM *

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The fact you gained 10 HP is great - that's all that really matters. The run numbers were about the same as my '06 after the tune

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Finally some good news...found a great mechanic who did a complete major service and ECM flash and dyno tune...finally got to ride it and it ran great...had a dead spot at 3700 rpm before and thats gone finally...the 2 different ECM flashes i had before were way off...one had almost nothing done to it and the other had waaaay too much timing in it...as much as 36 degrees at lower rpm's...shop owner said theres absolutely no way you can flash an ECM properly without your bike being run on a dyno...

* Last updated by: morgstang on 1/13/2017 @ 11:42 AM *

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Hey there stang. Your tuner must know a heck of a lot more than I do but seems to me a good flash tuned on the road at close to your altitude with similar mods should be very close to creating as perfect of fueling as a custom tune. Ignition is a standard map. A good tuner knows what generic curve to program and the same timing will work pretty much the same for every Gen1 zx14. Cooling fan and rev limiter are also generic in that it is known what works best for all. I'm sure every bike will benefit from a custom tune but I don't see the numbers changing a huge amount from any good tuners map. They all know the best AFR and the best timing. I think you just got someone who knows what they're doing this time so i'm glad for you.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/13/2017 @ 4:05 PM *

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I speculate that this mechanic is describing how its not possible to tune an engine without a dyno, as in, to build a higher performance fuel & ignition map from scratch without any feedback as to whether or not the changes you have made to the stock map have actually improved the performance of the engine.

Not the more literal translation of "no dyno = no flash"

Im by no means knowledgable about ECM flashing so maybe you guys can explain...i guess the term GOOD flasher is suspect...is it normal to have 36 degrees of timing almost across the board on one ECM and virtually no timing on the other?...both of these came from recommended flash experts on the board here...my tuner said absolutely no more than 16 degrees timing in the spots that had 36...please clarify for me...both flashed ECM's were sent to me and not done on a dyno with my bike...

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A good map for performance would have the ideal AFR number which is somewhere around 12.8~13.1 for Gen1 if i recall. If the fueling hits that AFR, you have the best fueling for power. That is probably as complicated as it pays to get. I really don't think slight variations in the AFR are going to be easy to notice unless you're paying very close attention. From there we could talk about individual riding needs and that would give us reasons to shoot for different AFRs in different parts of the map. If there is something peculiar to your engine, a custom tune would have a lot better chance of improving that over a regular flash. If somebody flashed your ECU fueling and barely changed it from stock, that probably was not very good map---no idea what went on there.

From my experience, going from tuner A's map to Tuner B, the change was not easy to tell without really opening the throttle. Then refining the map with Autotune and shooting for 13 AFR in all cells, well, I got pretty close to hitting it in two runs most of the time which tells me, the tuner's map must have been real close. I did not notice a big improvement from my refinements with Autotune. I think if there is any real magic in tuning, it comes from the tuners choice of target AFRs. That is something that requires some thought and creativity. Just hitting any AFR you want to pick is pretty cut and dry as long as you have the equipment and know how to use it.

Timing is something i have not gotten into enough but Romans told me the stock Gen1 timing is already very edgy. I don't want to confuse the issue by using incorrect terminology but stated plainly, the engine is firing closer to TDC with stock mapping than he would like to have it. People who try to cause ignition to occur a sooner hoping for more power are blowing their engines up and blaming it on not having proper engine building. Romans was runing over 300 hp on his turbo bikes with all stock engine parts.

I hope I got that correct. The gist of it is, the timing that generally creates better power is already present and going farther in that direction by tuning is asking for trouble. I do not believe there is reason to vary from the timing curve that is known to work best on the 14. What works for one 14 works for all. I suppose one tuner might be willing to take a bigger risk than another but if the engine is running without blowing up, I don't see that there would be a big range in timing maps. If you had 36 degrees, that sounds like a lot but it depends if it was advanced or retarded and here is where I get my terminology mixed up so best to leave it at that.

Just googled and seems to me if you were retarding 36 degrees, that may have been a tuner who was being more cautious. Does seem very questionable that they used the same timing throughout. Timing is normally optimized according to rpm and there is a curve, not a flatline.

* Last updated by: Rook on 1/13/2017 @ 10:28 PM *

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