I've been working on curing this (my) stupid, dangerous SR.
I'm dont appear to be getting anywhere...
Any tips / instruction / flame?
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Created on: 11/14/12 07:54 AM
Replies: 59
mebgardner
Location: Tucson, AZ
Joined: 05/08/12
Posts: 738
Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 7:54 AM
I've been working on curing this (my) stupid, dangerous SR.
I'm dont appear to be getting anywhere...
Any tips / instruction / flame?
Danno
Location:
Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 2142
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 8:33 AM
The 3500 rpm "light switch" is a tough one to work around. I've read that only an ECU reflash can really cure it. It's also responsible for the dreaded decel backfire that nobody can hear until they bolt up aftermarket exhausts. Since the reflash runs over $300, I am just trying to avoid that rpm range as much as possible while running steady throttle. Get past it and keep it above 4K and you will have a much easier time being smooth on the twistgrip.
heathun
Location: Carrollton, Ga
Joined: 02/15/09
Posts: 543
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 11:49 AM
Don't come off the throttle, not being a smartass either.
When I'm riding I never come completely off the throttle. The only time the throttle is completely closed is when I'm coming to a stop.
When riding maintenance throttle keeps the suspension working like it should, allows the bike to corner better,keeps your cornering clearance at max and soesn't overload the front tires traction. it also solves the off throttle pop people complain about without any modding.
Ps. It also helps to keep your throttle cables adjusted, over time the stretch just like your chain does. so you need to check throttle play regularly and adjust as needed. Me personally, I don't like the amount of play recommended in the manual. I like very little play, just check to make sure not to much is adjsuted out by turning your bars from full lock to full lock while running to make sure their is enough to prvent throttle opening when turning.
* Last updated by: heathun on 11/14/2012 @ 11:52 AM *
Kruz
Location:
Joined: 03/16/09
Posts: 6866
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 12:37 PM
The 3500 rpm "light switch" is a tough one to work around.
Is this only on the 14R?
Danno
Location:
Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 2142
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 2:11 PM
Is this only on the 14R?-Kruz
I haven't ridden an R, but it's been there on every other 14 I've been around regardless of year. Since it's an emissions test glitch that's been programmed in, I would think the R is the same way, maybe even worse with the increased torque. Mods like fly removal and aftermarket exhaust seem to emphasize it, and Power Commanders don't seem to remove it regardless of mapping.
heathun
Location: Carrollton, Ga
Joined: 02/15/09
Posts: 543
mebgardner
Location: Tucson, AZ
Joined: 05/08/12
Posts: 738
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 6:45 PM
Danno:
This is good, useful info.
This info is a surprise to me, I'm not familiar with what you're describing. Seems some other long-timers are also surprised here...
So, it's good info, but I also do not find this abruptness. Maybe I've not been looking for it...
Heathun:
Can you give me anything more about how to implement your advice. "Just dont do it" is not much to go on, I'm attempting to understand how I might get past the fear that's causing the un-intended, (un-concious?) behavior (closing the throttle).
Thanks,
Bob
Jagman
Joined: 01/07/12
Posts: 295
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 7:34 PM
I also have no idea what the original post means. No abruptness at 3500rpm or any other one for that matter. Full Brocks CT Duals system with PC and Brocks Street map. Smooth as silk. 2012 14R.
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 7:47 PM
Yup...gotta go with the Jagmaster here...never any abruptness....even with.....a Rifleman's 1/5th throttle mod.No flies...timing advanced,Full Ti system(2012 14R)Mapped.I also don't like 'free play'...I always dial that out...except for a teensy bit...just so I know the throttle is opening all the way as it should.My 07...no flies....Tiforce slips....mapping....aggressive gearing...throttle mod...never any abruptness...ever.But I've definitely HEARD about this thing...my guess...throttle free play.
Sounds counter to what you want to 'make the throttle grip more responsive'...but it's just what you need for a smooth right hand.I normally have a throttlemiester on there...but even without it...you can rest your grip hand partially on the housing to make smoother power positioning.(under your thumb,just applying light pressure on the housing that is).That'll keep ya from hamfisting the grip...you could try that?I don't ride around with the throttlemiester engaged.Only for resting my arm or something.
zxinit
Location: Greenville TX
Joined: 07/18/09
Posts: 309
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 8:36 PM
I also do not remember noticing any abruptness on my '06. I also do not totally close my throttle either. Was taught it is bad form so to speak. Think its mentioned by Keith Code in his books also. Not meaning to sound like a smart ass, but maybe rider improvement is the "fix". :) I know I can always improve my riding and I have been doing ti over 30 years now.
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
Nightmare
Location: Okotoks, AB
Joined: 04/07/09
Posts: 602
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 9:33 PM
I notice a pretty harsh jerk coming on the throttle if i don't do it just right, it would feel like excessive drive lash (the chain is properly adjusted). I think heathun hit the nail on the head with the throttle and chain adjustments. I personally feel that the stock slack on the throttle cable is really excessive and after I tightened it up I noticed the jerk is a LOT easier to manage.
If your adjusting the throttle turn your bars all the way to the stops THEN tighten the cable and check the full range of motion with the engine running to make sure the RPMs don't rise (indicating that the cable is too tight) and as always make sure the cable doesn't bind.
audioboyz
Location: Washington,Pa
Joined: 03/25/12
Posts: 531
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/14/12 9:34 PM
After I installed Ivans block off kit it was smooth sailing.No popping and smooth tahe offs.Of course I have a full pipe no flies and I'm carefull with the throttle.Also I have a custom map that was done well.
Craig
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21238
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 1:35 AM
I don't a have any abrubtness at 3500 at all.
A lot of people seem to be befuddles buy this. This is really old news. It was a big topic back in 07-08. I don't know if they fixed it after that or what. My bike always had it. It was dangerous for street riding when taking off into a right hand turn. I hit the 3500rpm G-spot several times and it was not as pleasant as that analogy might lead you to believe.
I installed a PC with a map for a stock ZX-14. No change. Pulled flies. Very slight improvement. Installed pipe and map for pipe + BMC race filter flies IN. Better. I ran the bike for about 2 months with AutoTune and then accepted trims. It has been all but perfectly smooth ever since. The bike still comes into it's strong zone over 3500 but it comes on gently.
HanksZX
Location: Augusta NJ
Joined: 09/15/12
Posts: 267
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 10:33 AM
Pretty sure what you guys are referring to is the emissions mandated fuel cut built into the ECU.
Reflashing the ECU gets rid of it and I can't remember if one of Ivan's tre's disables it or not.
It becomes more obvious in the tight stuff when you're on and off the throttle a lot in that particular RPM range and it might only affect the first 3 gears...can't remember really as I'm new to the 14's and Ivan and I spent quite a bit of time going over improvements...Hank
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21238
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 11:56 AM
I found it more of an issue for street riding. I am rarely running at 3.5K sport riding. Still, like all hazards, doesn't matter how often it happened that one time when it gets you. I must say that for the tighter corners I take where 40-50 mph is pretty edgy, I certainly am almost at 0 throttle. Although I agree with heathun that cutting throttle altogether while in the corner is not a good habit, I often engine brake at 0 throttle immediately before entering a tight corner. Getting completely off the throttle in a corner is risky but csn be the lesser of three evils if you find you ran in too hot. You can lean harder but there is more at play than just lowering your lean angle. We have a lot of invisible dust on the road this time of year and the cold plays an enormous role in tire grip. You can straighten up an ride off the road but that will have consequences that may or may not be obvious. Or you can cut the gas and lower your speed and deal with the chasis pitching forward. It's strictly an emergency move I have made when I felt the other two options were bad bets (and they usually are as I am already close to my limits while sport riding on streets lined with trees and other immovable objects). Has saved my a few times, easing off the gas while in a corner. Not too graceful looking but a lot more so than wrecking the bike.
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/15/2012 @ 12:01 PM *
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 12:07 PM
"Has saved my a few times, easing off the gas while in a corner"...yup...me too...I don't like the feeling when I do that...so I TRY to avoid it if possible.Kinda 'throws' everything off center...weird feeling.NOT NORMAL LOL!!!!.I just need really to remember to ease up on my 'quest to become the world's most dangerous rider"....It's 'glamorous' to hit those curves faster and faster...like the 'real riders'...but that friggin slammin the dirt an crunchin yer bike shit...that aint cool
.
* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/15/2012 @ 12:10 PM *
mebgardner
Location: Tucson, AZ
Joined: 05/08/12
Posts: 738
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 12:24 PM
I'm still here, reading, absorbing... carry on.
darryle
Location: ontario
Joined: 02/15/09
Posts: 1185
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 3:29 PM
On my 07 I have an issue at 3500 minimun throttle cruise,only when hot.We have had her on the dyno she was showing lean in that area.We replaced the TPS and played with the mapping.Had her out a few weeks ago,she was as smooth as silk.Brought her home from Hindle exhaust on the weekend,ran perfect until I got into the city and heavy stop and go traffic.The problem came back,but at 3800 only when 5 bars showing.I told Lang Hindle what happened.They are going to get at her again.Lang, his mechanic Scott are simply the best.As the bike is now my sons the surge really worries me.My 2012 with full Evolution exhaust and custom map is perfect
HanksZX
Location: Augusta NJ
Joined: 09/15/12
Posts: 267
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 6:48 PM
Maybe a more complete explanation of fuel cut would help mebgardner. Its a drivability issue, not a tuning issue.
Fuel cut happens when decelerating only. Fuel flow is stopped at the injectors as the RPM's come down from an ECU controlled 4000 or so to prevent unburned gas's from exiting into the atmosphere as mandated by the EPA. When the throttle is re-opened, a momentary lag is felt which is overcome by fuel being sent out the injectors. This is most obvious when transitioning open-closed-open throttle. It has nothing to do with fueling and engine smoothness under load. Hope that helps...Hank
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21238
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/15/12 10:34 PM
I have always assumed that the 3500 rpm zing was caused by flies opening and also the stock fueling. If you pull your flies, you are in control of the air coming in but OEM map is till going to richen up for the flies open whether they are there or not.
Simply put, the OEM mapping will deliver less fuel below 3.5K and then suddenly more fuel above 3.5K. You need to change the mapping and pull flies. One or the other won't solve the problem by itself.
COOTER
Location:
Joined: 04/27/11
Posts: 1342
Danno
Location:
Joined: 12/18/11
Posts: 2142
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/16/12 5:24 AM
I have always assumed that the 3500 rpm zing was caused by flies opening and also the stock fueling. If you pull your flies, you are in control of the air coming in but OEM map is till going to richen up for the flies open whether they are there or not.
Simply put, the OEM mapping will deliver less fuel below 3.5K and then suddenly more fuel above 3.5K. You need to change the mapping and pull flies. One or the other won't solve the problem by itself.-Rook
I believe that's true, but I've also read that the maps that smooth it out the best do it by reducing fuel delivery (and power) just above 3500 and then gradually dialing it back up. The p.o. of my bike said it has a slip-on map that's compatible with a TRE and 'flies removed. It also has a Muzzy adjustable timing plate set somewhat in the middle of the adjustment range.
Grn14
Location: Montana
Joined: 02/25/09
Posts: 15511
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/16/12 8:23 AM
That timing plate DOES make a noticeable difference in response...good I might add...picks up the very bottom end nicely.It will also give ya a good shifting feel when yer semi aggressively going up or down through the gears.Nice mod....will also increase fuel mileage...some.Course,you may not realize it cause the timing adjustment performance may just cause ya to be a tad more...'sporty' shall I say.;)
* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/16/2012 @ 8:26 AM *
Rook
Joined: 03/28/09
Posts: 21238
RE: Any tips for curing on / off throttle?
11/16/12 4:58 PM
I believe that's true, but I've also read that the maps that smooth it out the best do it by reducing fuel delivery (and power) just above 3500 and then gradually dialing it back up.
That sounds very possible. I should try the old flies in map I have to see if that is how it feels. You would have to get on the gas in first gear sorta hard to notice the dif. The smooth flies out map might also be a wheelie inhibitor.
That timing plate DOES make a noticeable difference in response...good I might add...picks up the very bottom end nicely
* Last updated by: Rook on 11/16/2012 @ 4:59 PM *
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