Why do these threads all turn into testimonials and sales pitches?
I'm back to naturally aspirated and now my bike is flashed. They are all basically the same. Is it worth doing? .... Yes. Pick your provider and do it.

Every time I get into a web scuffle, I remind myself that if I and the guys I'm arguing with were all at a beer barbecue together, we'd have the time of our lives. We'd laugh, exchange stories, show great interest and respect for each other's bikes and in general show the best side of human community.

We would. I guarantee it. The remoteness of the web brings out some odd stuff in humans. My first days here and at the other ZX forum were demonstrative of this. Smart-ass stuff popped in like it was automatic. I barked back, and there we went. Now, not as a rule, but it certainly happened with some of the folks here.

Let's avoid that illness. It's an odd phenomenon, really, and too easy to slip into for some of us. Man-to-man, we'd be a lot less smartass and a lot more respectful.

I'm not going to get into what product I'm going to get on this forum, but my question still stands, and maybe I should re-word it: what is the interesting stuff about the flash game? How does it compare to PCV/flash combo stuff?

I want low-mid and midrange potential maximized, because I know this motor can deliver the top-end goods. I have no way of hooking my wagon to 3% differences in dyno reports, unless the pulls were done on the same day, same dyno and reported to the same standard. Even then, 209 HP vs. 205 means not one whit to me if we don't talk about how well the midrange is supported and how smooth the throttle is down there. I come out of lots of turns in the midrange, and I want to learn my hand, so to speak, and keep the spin to a minimum and not have dips in power to twist my hand through.

And then leaving all that analysis behind, there is another point: In spite of whether 200 HP is enough for all of us and in spite of whether we are nit-picking about whether this is a testicle-size factor or an engine performance factor, WE BOYS JUST WANT THE MOST FROM OUR BIG ENGINE. Forget the technical and the practical, WE BOUGHT THIS BARRACUDA BECAUSE IT CAN BLAST, AND WE WANT THE BEST FROM WHAT IT CAN DO.

So I don't feel stupid at all wanting to flash my way to the top or near there. Yeah, it would be cool still at 185 HP, but when we nutheads know it can do 205, don't try to stop us with practical talk!

Jon

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"Why do these threads all turn into testimonials and sales pitches?
I'm back to naturally aspirated and now my bike is flashed. They are all basically the same. Is it worth doing? .... Yes. Pick your provider and do it."

Testimonials - my opinion was sought.

pick your provider - agreed.

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Hub let me get this straight, you are comparing two different dyno pulls from two different bikes, on two different dynos, and calling it science?

You need to ask both Smoke and C that question; if they both agreed they pulled dyno numbers and came up the same. Is that making sense yet both were different dynos?

Smoke & C agreed = both have 202 HP was what I read. C did not come back and dispute it. I sure would have it it was my product. So the science of silence continues is the assumption of no answer coming forward.
Smoke ran 3 passes on pig/Don and 3 with the Cflash = I added up the times and Don/pig outperforms.
If Smoke and C agree it was the same HP flashed, that showed consistency is more me thinking safe backup.
If someone states 208 and that 6HP between all those runs flashed @202 and here comes 208 no flash...
... If Smoke mentions a 310 top end is all even up, sure sounds strange.

Lots of junk points to:
1. Even 202HP
2. Even 310 top end #'s
3. Even adding up the runs and stab an average at it, pig edges out was the only change.
4. Even the latest post here says 208 without a flash, and both flashes default to 202 is how do you see the science?

A. C has yet to dispute the numbers.
B. Smoke has yet to correct me.
C. Mav has yet to admit a stocker outperformed Mav's best ET.
D. There is no way I am disrespecting Cblast. Like Wolfy said, he likes the banter like I do.

Smoke sensed there was not an 8.3 inside that flash. If anyone would know, it's my rider I picked as the benchmark. I don't question "The Hand" is why the hand got there with that sort of natural instinct.

Taking all the other stuff out of it, let me ask: what are the bare, bare facts being argued here?

Fact 1: Download kawi's 'kit-ECU' software off of that break-in guy's website. Pop up the map and begin changing cells. Note how the cell line defaults to a + or - in that horizontal column I believe it was? It says that number does not compute and it is now in an average kind of count I would imagine (algo)?
Fact 2: The +/- column is now in a mathematical formula called, 'method.' Note that you still type in the same numbers in the cell and it can default by that one change in numbers. There is your science.
Fact 3. Ivan's tre would have the same sort of low grunt effect was the computer sensed a signal out of range, defaulted to this 'backup method;' so your bike was still safe to ride.
Fact 4. The last thing I read was this option to turn off the 02 under this flash option in the program. We do not have the 02, the euro type do. So you have to do 2 things for this to happen is to toggle the light off at the dash, remove the 02 sensor itself off the wire harness, because I would think it's still in line, still pushing data and now it fights the constant 13.5a mapped flash? And 02 is set for 14.6a stoic. So if there is a glitch like that occurs, and I can only guess the ping is still in play;
Fact 5. The fact is, if the flash works with the 02 in play, I'll chew the carbon off the nose. This is where I have to walk how the bike is now without a sensor in the loop. This defaults the system to a low torque (tre); safe ride to the dealer and check it out.... One of my 'various' sensors is down.
Fact 6. I then have to junk science in the concept, 'gee, both are flashed and both default to 202HP.' Then I bring in, 'note the walk of the 'method;' is that the 02 sensor is down/not in the loop/signal lost/defaulted to [low torque] 'method.'
Fact 7. Here is where I have no issue with the facts of it defaulting to 'method' in more than these 2 ways, is a kit-ECU out of formula = Default to method. The loss of a 'various' is it sure reads 'a red flag code to backup in 'method.'
Fact 8. That a single wire 1)removed out of the loop, 2)short to ground, 3)signal out of range, that a single cell may factor in, 'JUNK IN JUNK OUT' default to this science in the shop man you will note how that vac gauge slams to 14.7/760/Basic computer moves 101.3 is, 'we take measures using the handcuffed suck-number.'
Fact 9. Where I am on the science of "SUCK" it up and spit it out, is that one hit wonder moving in 3 handcuffed moves are in no certain odor, but think toilet flush = Discharge-Threshold-Trigger. At the back where the tank is (threshold) and when you push on the lever (trigger) there is a (discharge) of water from the tank to the bowl and it repeats that one constant move like clock, as does this computer.
Fact 0. The Computer starts @ 0. Byte crack key! Pull your digital radio plug out of the wall socket. WATT are the numbers when plugged in? 00.00. Those are the STEPS to the music, bite for bit. I do not make the rules. DTT does. 14.7 does. Nature does is we are handcuffed to this perfect balance. I had another 'fact' in my head but it will come back.

Prior to any contention and proof, now, what is the bare, simple argument?

The argument is how do you explain a flash equals 202HP between flashers, and then the pig alone that has 208hp? That's a 6hp difference and deduct the weather, tire, lubed chain, tuner, keep adding so 6hp would still mean 1 hp over; is 2 locked in a default is the junk or science? That this non-flashed-208 is better junk science? That's what I bring to the table of truth. Numbers don't lie.

Unless you can explain it another way, like I keep saying... Bring in that other suck number if it's not 760mmHg in the book and they use that number to explain it, it's going to be hard you trying to change things in the book w/real facts?

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I took the bike to Mitch at Frankenstein Power Cycle. Remember she was stock wheel base with basically zero mods. She dynoed at 205.9 with a PC5. The bike was super smooth and linear.

Wolf as you know I show all who come to my house all that's in All Flashes. With very little done to that flash your bike made 206 hp on "That Dyno" Sweet

This time I dynoed bike. We did one pull - she dynoed at 199. Something... Remember long arm 10 over with wheel set way back turning bigger chain and rocking 200 flat Shinko ultra light hook ups.

Changes.

Now, you have installed a Dyno award winning better Free Flowing Pipe, lighter tires, Removed my Flash installed New Flash and went down in 7 HP on the Exact same Dyno ?

Have to Ask, what did Mitch have to say about that ? As a tuner he must have been scratching his Ole Noodle.

I'm actually a scientist in my other life, so information interests me.

Perfect, follow the science. Flash should sell itself and yes you do have the right to know what we are putting in "Your Bike". Or you can go on faith alone. This all depends who you are I guess. In comes the Pitch.

Opinions based on the want to believe in the Magic Pill muddy the water so badly Arguments Start. From here the Science is completely lost. Are we flashers taking credit for a bike we did Not build ? Sure reads that way.

None of these threads would have any legs if you could see what I see. It is laughable and maddening all at the same time. Why, is because I believe as Bike owner myself "You Have The Right To Know !"

I don't want you to sell me a story, show me. Like a PCV map I want to see see it. Just because you say it's good in your bike Most certainly does not mean it's perfect in my bike.

Case and point, Why is it Not all Dyno sheets of the same flash show the same AFR's ? Why are most in the 190's SAE smoothing 5 While others are showing 212 in the STD. 22hp is one big number. No science here, Sorry.

Soon, very soon all flashes will be up on the screen for all to see(My Hopes). Only then will the many know how silly the Dozens and Dozens of flash threads have become. And at that time some of you are "Not" going to take it so well. Life.

Lol, i'm not a very Good sales man am I ? Stick to the science. Yes Flash your Bike. She loves it.

What did Mitch say...
When you lined up my old chart (pc v) and new chart (up date c flash) we noted a increase in the mid range building power with a 6 pony loss top end arch. We did not run torque numbers. However stock stretch was a factor. Point blank could Mitch tune it on a dyno with better results or same results? Mitch like C is. Dynamite tuner. Both these men are exceptional. We can speculate all day. It would be an interesting experiment though.

Since I bought a flash from you Romes and an early version. Do you want to put your latest version flash on an ecu for me and I'll run it down to Mitch and run both tunes side by side and post? It would be a settled once and for all, no? Let me know I'm down. I bet the difference would be close. But I'm up for the challenge.

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I want low-mid and midrange potential maximized, because I know this motor can deliver

Flash = No turning back unless you pay to have it back to stock.
Low-mid = Where the flash settles in.
TRE = Where the low-mid gives a milder effect.
Pig = Where both smooth-rich means; 'best torque' brings on more grunt.

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Flash Truths

1. You will pick up a few horsepower
2. Your bike will feel more lively on the bottom end
3. Every flasher has the risk of flash fucking your ecu into the garbage bin.

Oh and Wolf my previous post wasn't necessarily directed at you, it was just a general comment. You already know how I feel about this topic.

^^ tarue dat

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Since I bought a flash from you Romes and an early version. Do you want to put your latest version flash on an ecu for me and I'll run it down to Mitch and run both tunes side by side and post? It would be a settled once and for all, no? Let me know I'm down. I bet the difference would be close. But I'm up for the challenge.

Wolf I responded to this offer awhile back. Answer was Romans All In. You know this. For us this was all going to be in good fun. Since that time I heard nothing from you on the subject so I never brought it up again.

So hypothetically I may have Flashed a ECU with Romans Flash in High. Others Flash in Low. That bike may have had a PCV on board with a Map switch so as to test PCV Maps Compared to flash. That Bike may have been Black and orange with Brocks CT Duals, Marchesini wheels ceramic bearings Brocks Zero weight oil and his Aslyn additive.

In short I may have the answers my OCD requires already.

If you really want to know how "your" bike is doing, install PCV make a test run compare the two. I still have your Map ? I will be happy to send it to you. Let me know.

I have been avoiding these flash threads of extreme power gains due to the simple fact no matter what I say it's frowned upon. Wolf had you not mentioned my name in this thread I would have stayed out of it. I prefer peace.

Now, If you or anyone has any New real science this will draw me in every time. I test and try everything. And of course I do enjoy it.
Remember I'm just playing but to some this is much more important. Especially when money involved.

]

Mentioned your name ?
Did you not flash my bike?
I don't want to get into a fight about it. I thought I was mentioning you with respect. I will go and remove your name.

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Mentioned your name ?
Did you not flash my bike?
I don't want to get into a fight about it. I thought I was mentioning you with respect. I will go and remove your name.

Ugh, don't read into it. Not like that, if anything you made me look good and I'm also very sure you didn't mean to. I hate the net sometimes.

3. Every flasher has the risk of flash fucking your ecu into the garbage bin.

I've got a corrupt ecu I would like to sell.

wee

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Don't mind me , I'm just here reading .. :)

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Oh ok.
This summer my bikes going on the dyno at Fank's how about you tag along bring your ecu and we run my bike? You can post the sheet.
Fair?

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Speaking about the net, Tall, did you visit the 1441 site for 14's and notice a flash thread, where Romes is stuck with a brick, the wooly bins were the problem, not Romes flash? And then there are ECU's that turn into bricks even with the updated wooly bins?

So right there we may enter a variable with the flash is a brick sent back to you. I would find out how many bricks were flashed by your potential flasher, ask if this were to happen to your ECU, who eats the brick in the mailbox, get it in writing, breach of contract and all those bucks down the tubes.

Where this comes down to is a potential of the wallet out and open, eating over 1000 dollars for the boat anchor to become a bike again. Now, ain't that the truth. No one brings up the brick when flash is the subject, just a lot of happy assfactors.

YOu've been warned! C? How many bricks are we looking at? If Rome has, CheezeIS too, don't know if Don has the wooly bins or Ivan for sure not, I'll assume they are sitting on bricks all buy themselves is twofold. That leaves Romes/Cheese out, they've bin dare done dat. That's fold number 1. Fold 2 is to bring them out 1 buy 1 is how many are Ivan sitting on, Don and Cblast is no comment, then you assume they are sitting on bricks.

So one more time, use takes your chances brick buy brick, the dirty little secret is bit bye Byte!

Here is a flash... Go check the mailbox.
Here is watt happened inside ...
Here is the result... https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2197/5793413801_1e92095a34.jpg

Signed,

Get'em while they're hot!

* Last updated by: Hub on 6/24/2015 @ 2:17 PM *

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Wee how much? What year ect?
I can get a used ecu for a brownie up here.
Brownie is Canadian for 100 Canadian.
Wolf

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Every flasher has the risk of flash fucking your ecu into the garbage bin.

1+

I've got a corrupt ecu I would like to sell.

I'd rather pay shipping to have it sent here, try to fix it, plug it in, ride it, send it back no charge and I'd still pay shipping both ways; as if looking at it as tuition money tinkering with it. I'm sitting here with 5 ECU's and it's not like I need another one with a problem.

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Got 99 problems but my ecu ain't one.

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I know I should Tuck Tale and make a run for it while I still can but,,,,here we go.

Ok, "Flash Truth".

Got 99 problems but my ecu ain't one

Wolf I could have sworn Mitch could not finish your bike on the Dyno because your ECU was throwing up unexplained codes. This was out of the blue for no good reason. This is of course why you borrowed a Clean ECU from me. You may not have a problem "now" but the word "now" is very important here. Now, currently, after you sent your ECU back for a reflash you are down hp,,,,,, hmmmm. Now you have got me thinking.

Are you a thousand percent sure your 99 problems didn't grow to into a triple digit 100 ?

If you are 100% sure that's great. Some of These ECU's can be a Major pain in the ass. Not all are so lucky. As posted there are Risks. Once these ECU's have issues,,,,,,,,, Well they have issues to be polite.

Wee how much? What year ect?
I can get a used ecu for a brownie up here.
Brownie is Canadian for 100 Canadian.
Wolf

Wolf I'm thinking maybe you should grab one for yourself. If you don't need it always nice to have a spare. Testing is only way to know for sure.

If you can really get these 14R ECUs for 100 dollars Canadian wolf I will take a few. I paid 900 for a brand new one. With all that's going on with these ECU's buying one second hand requires research to where it came from. Be careful.

What is the risk of my flash being corrupt or rendering my ECU damaged?

Flat out, what do we think the risk is?

What is the risk it will harm performance? Can you flashers tell me your success rate/failure rate?

My influence is only $400, so that shouldn't matter that much.

How many go bad?

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I'm not going to comment on performance. Hopefully my fat ass can do the testing I've been talking about doing (stock ECU vs CBlast ECU) and I'll let that do the talking as far as performance.

C was extremely patient with me and answered a lot of my questions over a period of a few months. I had been out of motorcycles for 15 years and ECU flashing made sense but was entirely new to me. I appreciated that. As I researched more into ECUs and flashing in general I finally made the decision to purchase his flash service (compared to PCV etc.). C's always been helpful and professional and I definitely believe his passion for this sport. ECU was flashed, came back worked like a charm, no problems. I believe every word out of people saying great things about C's service and passion.

Wolf, who's this Harry guy?

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Wow. Guess that beer barbecue won't happen with some of us.

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I literally just installed my Muzzy M10 and Cblast ecu this week. I chose the Cblast flash because of the positive feedback not just from guys who only used Sebs flash but more so from the guys who tried other flashes as well and said that Cblast was better.

After having numerous "built" Harley motors dynoed this whole dyno and numbers talk is a bunch of crap. Unless we all dynoed our bikes on the same day on the same dyno with exactly the same tire pressure, chain, lubrication, ect... This conversation is kind of stupid.

This flash and pipe have literally turned this bike into a scary beast. It is almost begging you through its exhaust note at 3800rpm to mash the gas. I haven't even come close to redline which is even scarier. I'm sure the other flashes make the bikes better as well but I went with my gut and could not be happier with the choice I made.

To whoever said they don't like Sebastian's attitude towards Hub... Well you are entitled to your opinion and let your dollars do your talking. If you were constantly hammered every step along the way I believe you would at some point become frustrated as well. Cblast has clearly put his time in doing the research. Have you found anyone who actually rides his flash have something bad to say about it? I'm just an average guy who rides for the love of it. No track days... No stand up wheelies down the highway... Just a guy who likes to light his hair on fire every now and then. After only two rides on this flash I can't stop thinking about my next ride.

Well done Cblast!

* Last updated by: GunShow on 6/24/2015 @ 7:53 PM *