I'm no programmer, but I'm having a hard time understanding how software alone can create permanent damage to an ECU

Packet loss during the file transfer/ overwrite.

Parameter mismatches. (IE: Different model ecu)

Or an encode, decode mismatch between the software the and environment

Basically it bricks the ECU and as far as I know there is no Factory firmware or a way to wipe the chip through a standard hookup and software to reflash it.

I do have an eprom reader here. No idea what chipset the ecu uses. But... It could be possible to download a known good Factory ECU image. Wipe a known bad ecu and upload the good factory ECU image and go from there. Would take a bit of soldering.

---

I had the Cali 1st gen that gave Roman the shits. It was my fault. I bought a spare ecu that was supposed to be a 1st gen 49 state. Ended up being something different. Roman warned me of the risks, but I gave it a shot anyway. The file was corrupt. He replaced it with the correct ecu, flashed, and I came out of it WAY better off. There's more to a flash than hp #s. My bike is quicker, faster, yes, but also runs smoother, cooler, shifts smoother, and gets better gas mileage, if I can resist the throttle anyway! I don't care what the hp is, just how the bike feels and runs. Roman took a heavy hit to do this for me. That's customer service, and a stand up guy!

---

Thanks for the concise answer! :)

---

Ok I guess im the first guy with a calirornia spec ecu that Romans flashed that had a problem. He could have stayed quite and we worked out the issue's between me and him about the problems with my ecu being bricked as they say. But noo. He was the first to post an issues with the ecu. Mine was a calirornia only spec ecu. Aparrently at in my case and time no one else had said ecu 0715 or a good woolich bin file for it. Took a lot of un necessary heat for it without any help from anyone!!!. New ecu was purchased by Romans out of his pocket. New ecu Flashed with his maps and I ran it for about 10k-15k miles on my bike with no issue's. Some may or not know but I end up putting any ware from 1500 -2000 miles a month on my bikes. Communiting, weekend rides, 2 up with the wife. Romans is always straight up and forthcoming with info for anyone that asks.
I aslo posted a thread on my experiences with riding and the tuning an modifications to my bike with dyno charts as to results with my bike. Long story short ECU flash that works is a great improvement on an alredy great bike. My personal choice is an ecu flash with a pc5 dyno tune for max performance. Pc5 in just used as a fine tuning In case I make aditional mods without having to send ecu back and forth and tuned for my location and afr readings. Some say its not needed but I disagree. I go the extra to get what I feel is the best for me and my bike.
cheers and party on

* Last updated by: Blkcasper on 7/1/2015 @ 12:57 AM *

---

Hello everyone just got cblasted.and it's the truth.ive been in the game a long time best money spent. This thing (zx14r)is a beast. Can't wait to get to the track. I sold my carpenter powered 06. This should be as fast or faster we'll see and I'll get back to the board with results. Thanks guys

This thread has brought up some very interesting facts.
Ivan and Don have had no problems that anyone has heard of.
Romans has had problems but immediately made them right by buying a new ecu for the guys whose ecu's were bricked while flashing, so the question isn't who has the best flash but who stands behind their work and who doesn't?
I don't care if someone's flash, when successful, feels great...I want to know what they are going to do for me if they screw up my ecu? That's the question I want answered before I spend a dime with anyone.

---

Hank,
It really comes down to knowing there is a glitch to this flashit. I'm trying to wrap my head around 'packet error' if you want to read up; is one theory. So once it turns into a brick, instant boat anchor [no start].

Where does this put you and the flasher? Like you said, if this 'errorNF' [no file] pops up, why are you hanging it on the flasher? The flashers have no clue what comes along and now it's termed a brick. I did have an imaginary company called BBB, but I got out of that mindset.

See, I was going to rent-a-ride. You run the list of options, I Burn them in. You Built it. Now, the deposit is over a grand, because if you do not return the ride, you forfeit the deposit; I have to go out and buy a new ECU, etc.

See, people are lined up around the block [I imagine] is like a seapository waiting to happen. Coming right up, coke, no pepsi. BBB sure had its rein. Built-BUY-BRICK was my business card. Yeah, I was going to bank on this one, butt when the ECU's came back, it had gray matter on it like it was plugged in the wrong... so I got out of it because of the health reasons. I felt like a protologist operating without a license.

---

Thanks for the explanation Hub, but to be clear..is the problem inherent in some ecu's prior to flashing and shows its self post flash or is the problem caused by flashing an ecu with a corrupted file, bad flash equipment, bad technique, etc. At the end of the day, the guys who had no problems or the guy who stands up and buys a new ecu to replace one that bricked while he was flashing it is the guy I'd go to. I'm kind of surprised the other flashers haven't chimed in???

---

Chiming in = bad for business.
Don't expect those who are trying to line their pockets off this flash to be offering up all this info. Guys like Roman's who does this just for hobby sake and fun don't mind sharing.
I believe everyone who has used the flashing software has bricked an ecu doing this. My guess is it is something in the flashing software itself and not programmer error that is causing it.

Hank, YW.

...is the problem inherent in some ecu's prior to flashing and shows its self post flash

Yes.

or... bad flash equipment, bad technique, etc.

If you are talking Woolich Racing software, no, it's not the software per say. Is it being addressed for the later or that certain part numbered ECU? That, I don't know?

At the end of the day, the guys who had no problems or the guy who stands up and buys a new ecu to replace one that bricked while he was flashing it is the guy I'd go to.

Well, that's what I sort of danced around with. Say it's you that is the flasher. Say you know going in there might be a brick that you plug in. Why should you pay out of pocket if you already know what the flash can do, why should you pay because someone just has to have it and now you are stuck with his mod you warned the customer about and who pays for that 'error' going in? Think about that and make sure your mod wallet can cover that scenario.

I'm kind of surprised the other flashers haven't chimed in.

It would be nice. The question is, what part numbers are you sitting on would be one. The other is, 'who pays for the brick?' And that is where with that kind of price they are getting, or some are getting, well, I spin the wheel of fortune if 10 fly and I eat 1, for sure I'll take a chance so my kind of business would be, 'I the flasher pays for the brick.' WATThell do I look like? Nice odds, no? So when that phone call is finally made, ask how that [flash] goes down? Oh really? And now you work a deal with a signed contract, which states that the flasher eats it. The flasher can always decline any deal, and so can you.

Tamed,

How would someone know that they got a "bum" flash?

I think there are 2 types of flash. The first type is to toggle this or that for an enabled or disabled move. So that is one type of flash. The other flash is setting the AFR. See that imaginary flash company called, BBB? Better business your ass it's not. It's you who built the flash and what it wants to do.

BuiltBuyBrick: you build it, you pay for it, you eat that brick. < Tiny Ping Print

1. Code 3a or self check the ECU it's saying, down-data/error/Packet, and I mean packet is a guess? Would there not be more variables to this? I'd have to type a code line, call it a file that does something in my notes, but this is not a file but a change in numbers. Would not all these checks and balances the same file packet flying thru the download box or interface, and that interface runs like a clock, go ask Romes how many times he's flashed his one ECU.

2. Flashing lower ABS-Skid bar on the dash. Amber bulb stays on and now the PAIR signal acts as another self check; something is wrong.

3. The obvious is a no start; once you see the flashing and it does not self clear or you turn the key off and clear it that way.

---

Since I commute daily on the bike, I won't get involved with possible downtime.
Having said that, how that downtime is handled would be a consideration also.
To date, only Rick Romans has admitted to problems while flashing and he has bought new ecu's to replace the "bricked" one's. If I were to gamble on a flash, I would want this kind of support.
The other choices are Don Guhl and and Ivan. I'm an old friend of Ivan's and he insists on using a PC5 and I insist on not using one due to their occasional failures. Don Guhl is a possibility but I like Ivan's tuning better.
That's my personal take on it but I appreciate the input...

---

Hank: if your a friend of Ivan, call him and ask his opinion of the Woolich interface.

---

Hank: if your a friend of Ivan, call him and ask his opinion of the Woolich interface.

You don't have to talk to Ivan to get his opinion. He post it right on his site: A word about "Do-it-Yourself" ECU flashing kits:.

Considering he has his own flash services which I'm sure he charges a fair price for it would be entirely fair to take his word on competing products. Oh wait...no, I have it backwards. But I'm sure you've figured that out by now.

Oh, but what a single telephone conversation would yield.

You call him too. Get the info he refuses to post on public forums.

Then you'll know what I know. I'm the guy with the untouched ECU.

---

Hold on a second...Yes, I'm an old friend/customer of Ivan's and have worked with him on many projects that I built for myself and for other people. I probably have over 100 dyno run's in his shop. I have the utmost respect for his tuning abilities but my only point was he wants to use a PC5 with his flash and I won't use one...This eliminates him from giving me the total package....much the same as a guy who won't stand behind his flashes. To date, Rick Romans is the only guy who has stood up and bought customers new ecu's from his own pocket when the ecu's he flashed developed problems. Why would anyone go elsewhere?
This is my personnel opinion and others are welcome to theirs but I won't try to drag Ivan into an internet pissing match...if he wants to join in the fun, that's up to him...if not, so be it but not because of me. Read his site about ecu flashing...he's pretty clear he has custom built equipment for flashing ecu's and doesn't use the commercially available stuff. If you want more info...call him!

---

Find a way to bond in our collective ownership of this amazing technology.

Hey!

You floated the bait, and we (the forum) bit.

It's our ball of fur now. Kindly butt out!

I'm kidding. This is the most excitement we've seen since Hub told us he was opening his own brewery.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 7/2/2015 @ 7:29 PM *

---

Would you like Heinz 57 with your words, Mr. Quickdraw?

---

(as Sir Sean Connery)

"Then, the day is mine!"

---

Well... an honest discussion, without abridgement, regarding ECU edits is just now upon us. You may have played a part in its instigation.

I guess you've earned a gold star.

---

Thank you for inquiring.

My scooter, along with my corporeal self, tick along in accordance to manufacturers specifications.

The Queen Bee remains suspicious of you.

It cannot be helped.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 7/2/2015 @ 8:24 PM *

---

Just so you know... you should wiggle indicating the relative angle of the sun to a sweet patch of nectar. Otherwise you're wiggling just cuz you like it.

Either works for The Bashie.
<-----

She'll nibble you, regardless.

* Last updated by: hagrid on 7/2/2015 @ 9:18 PM *

---

3 sales codes walk into a motherboard and meals hotel, have reservations, because there is a convention going on. All 3 have their own seminars you sign up for. The clock starts running so you have to run to the next seminar you signed up for and all those workshops to go to. So here is the first presider and the other 2 follow.

1. Hello, I'm Free Dick, butt you can call me richer. Here we have a wire witwoends you could not tell them apart you go flipping that wire. I need to be connected to the other 2 presiders or I go foul in so many words. I brought a 4th variable is in a 4th dimension you had to be there is the industry joke. Okay, enough of me, here is our next presider...

2. Greetings, my name is Nihilie Alittle, and my job is to connect the dots to that wire of fire. If say I closed my hands, swung them behind my BACKUP sir, don't get too close, where was I? Oh yes.. I guarantee that this is going to work forever and ever, watch, no hands! Our last presider and aren't you happy it's been a long day is...

3. Me? Yes come on up. I'm not ready. WATThell do you mean you are not ready? This has been planned since like it was 1999. It's going to work, it has to work, event the book says no plug, a short, or signalost is wire wire on the wall, who dat banking dick one for all and all 4 into 1 is a N dare you have it.

The moral of the story? If 6 goes 3 ways is the charm, I say it lasts forever I guarantee you are going to like how it runs.

---

Guy's in truth ecu flashing is no different as what started out when 1st programming the PCV/pc3/pc5.. its a leaning curve. Everyone has maps to share for different setups. Some work some don't! Up side to pcv/pc3/pc5 is that you cam remove it if it fails and back to stock. . Now with ecu flashing if something goes wrong you need to replace euu. Main problem with the ecu is that you never really know if any 2 are the same. As kawasaki uses the same part number ecu for different bikes in different locations of the world. This I think is where the real problems rises. Say an 0712 ecu used in an Australian model is not mapped and programmed the same as an 0712 ecu for the us. There are also different features within a model range , such as calirornia bike has no abs, European madel has abs. Same part number ecu. Is there a difference in the mapping or code format of ecu??? My understanding of the woolich software is that the rely on stock maps/configurations uploaded form users of said ecu. Now say brocks, ivans, Gaul, ecuuleased, shnitz, have there own software developed to read the ecu? Truth be told all have had issue's with bricked ecu's or ecu's supplied to customers that have not worked as described. Some have been fixed and returned to stock. Some have not and new ecu was needed. I'm on many forums where issues have been listed. Not only with the zx14 but also with the zx10 Which I also follow as I have one of those also. I also am a programer/engineering field in my line of work. So my issues is why doesn't said flash programmer save/download/verify said ecu before flashing??? This way ecu ifnfo is saved beforehand. Compassion is made/verified before flashing to see if said new falsh is compatible?? This 8s easy to do with most flash software that is available. I do it every day with eprom/pal/fpga/isc device programs I use for different computer products. ??...

---

Ivan's unsolicited response from another thread:

RE: Flash Negatives!
07/03/15 3:07 AM

Anyone flashing these bikes except myself,unleashed, and Don are using Wooly boxes and software.

Changing the format of the original file so it works only in your software so you can control who uses it is part of the problems. The other problems come from interface boxes that are improperly designed And can physically damage board components.

Anyone who uses it is handcuffed to all the limitations and problems associated with it.

That's why I don't have any problems with damaged ECU'S and I suspect that Don doesn't either.

We both have our own software / hardware.

We both do not alter the file in any way.

I have never had any problems with any ECU that I have reprogrammed.

Ivan

---

Ivan did my flash. Just thought I'd thrown out what a great knowledgable guy he is.