Yes, I have felt what you are talking about Hub. And it can't compare to a properly built tune.

I doubt that also, but if you did feel the hack, would you agree that same kind of feel is there, only if we are saying what your customers are saying, they have this same 'lower power response' like the hack hit, yes it feels like it only more robust, no, there is more to it, etc.

If it could every race team would tune with ass dynos. Common sense applies. We didn't build our tunes exclusively on the dyno.

When we race we do not bring our dynos? We pull spark plugs and this is more how you read the power as in home he does not need a dyno to read a plug and know where the AFR is in color? A little bit of that 'ol skool rearing to grab that trophy you came for.

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What is a smoothing factor? And how does it have anything to do with tuning a motorcycle?

Straight from power commanders website.

Gear input (allows for map adjustment based on gear and speed)

With gear position input connected the PCV is capable of allowing each cylinder to be mapped individually and for each gear (for example: on a 4 cylinder bike with a six speed transmission there could be up to 24 separate fuel tables).

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http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Products/PowerCommanderV/powercommander_v.aspx

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Shane green bike did not have Guhls flash in it all he did was set the default for the T/C and remove the top speed limiter and raise the limiter to 11500 .. He didn't do any timing or work to the fly's ..The map he used was a modded Brocks Map that he did on the dyno ..

Here is what he said he did to the bike ..

Racheal's ZX14R Purchased 5/3/14

5/4/14 - lowering links, steering damper and front end strap kit. Rode 54 miles break in and oil change.
5/11/14 - put on aftermarket smoked rear brake and rear turn signals. Removed stock pipes and placed brocks alien head 2. Removed passenger peg hangers. Removed stock fender and installed fender eliminator.
5/17/14 Alisyn 0w20 w/petron
5/24/14 - installed poly bar ends.
6/7/14 - rear sprocket was removed and replaced with Renthal 42T sprocket. Removed rear brake rotor and replaced with Galfer wave rotor. Raised front forks approximately .75 inches. Removed front reflectors. Removed tool kit.
6/8/14 - Install shorai battery. Remove screen from air filter. Disable kleen air. Install power commander and adjust map. Remove charcoal canister.
8/8/14 - Remove ECU and reflash. 11500 rpm limit, remove speed limiter and hold last traction control setting. Woolich.
8/9/14 - put modified pump/track map in power commander.

.............................
Shane rode the bike and knew it was down on power Vs his other bike but didn't have time to do any ECU tuning or even add the brocks clutch mod he had ordered ..I can without question tell you that the clutch mod would have added MPH in the Mile ... My own bike picked up 3 to 4 MPH in just the 1/4 mile .. I don't know anyone what hasn't picked up MPH in the 1/4 mile after installing the mod and springs and spacers ..Shane green bike was not ready to run the mile and he knew it and raced it anyway .. He just didn't have the time to put into the bike before the race with all the over time he was getting at work .. He didn't even pull the flies ..Next time he takes it to the mile i'll bet money he has it dialed in right ..

Now Capt10ed was ready , he did his home work , he talked to shane , he read what shane did as well as others . he asked all the important questions ...His attention to detail paid off big time .. What he and his son did for the very first time ever to race the mile was outstanding ..My hat is off to him and his son for a job well done ..

* Last updated by: Smokinzx14 on 10/18/2014 @ 11:22 AM *

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once installed, the Auto Tune kit monitors the fuel mixture (by installing the included Wide Band O2 sensor in the exhaust). It then sends this information to the Power Commander V and automatically corrects it while you ride. Each map that we offer has preset Air/Fuel ratio values included that we find to be the best overall settings. This lets you simply plug in the unit and let it do the work. For Harley Davidson models we ever monitor and adjust each cylinder individually for increased precision as on these models required fueling can vary significantly between the front and rear cylinder

Powcomder's website quote.

I believe this is for the twin cylinder only?

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Oops...
I did 208 with the flies still in
So next year I'll do 210 with the flies out,

And I DO believe Brock clutch Mod kit DOES make a difference!!!

The GREEN bike is RACHAEL's and she's proud of it.....It's so pretty!!!!

Thanks smokin

* Last updated by: capt10ed on 10/18/2014 @ 11:40 AM *

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You can't use a pig to unify cylinder or gear mapping

This question is coming from someone who counts on smarter guys than myself to make the 14r even better. I don't care if its Cblast, Romans or Brocks as long as it works. Cblast you list one of the drawbacks to using a "pig" as shown above. Kawasaki probably designed the offset fueling for a reason, why would we want to remove it?

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Cblast you list one of the drawbacks to using a "pig" as shown above. Kawasaki probably designed the offset fueling for a reason, why would we want to remove it?

Jelly filled! Mmmmmm

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Some of that offset fueling is due to the uneven velocity stack arrangement from the factory.

Cylinder off set for fueling and timing could be done for a numbers of reason , cooling , smoothing , decrease power and TQ in the power band .. Why did Kawi add it ? Why did they add a safe mode ? This guys in Japan are a tricky bunch ..I know on a car we can use larger or smaller Jets in the 4 corners of the carb to fix a problem with manifold design problem that happens on most v8 motors ..I don't see a inline four having that problem ..On a v8 all holes use the same timing ( no off set ) but for some reason Kawi , zook and the rest do use it .. Top fuel and pro stock bike don't use it .. Carb bikes like the ZRX don't use it .. one jet size one timing number .. Know we know those bike didn't have to pass any of the new emission laws like your ZX14s do ..So emissions might be one reason . Other reason to soften the hit when you bang on the throttle , better or softer feeling at low throttle settings ( removing glitches in low speed riding ) ..My best guess for this is drivability and emissions .. I'm racing so I could care less about that .. I want full power all the time :) So removing any timing or fueling offsets should offer the rider more power in the lower , mid and upper mid ranges .. The stacks being different sizes spreads the TQ band ( more rider friendly ) I have tried all four stacks of the same size and found no change ..The Gen one didn't use them, but it didn't have the power that a Gen 2 has in the lower end ..

* Last updated by: Smokinzx14 on 10/18/2014 @ 3:38 PM *

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I didn't see any improvement with the velocity stack trick either Lee.

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LOL

And now back to our scheduled program...

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Wolf was that grade school crap aimed at me ?

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Smoke absolutely not
Aimed at some blokes who suck way too much thumb.

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Ok I'll take you word on that wolf ..

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trust me smoke, if I aimed it at you - your name would be next to it.
I just feel this thread has disintegrated from it's original intention. Particularly in reference to a new approach, and data to support the performance characteristics of C's flash. Has nothing to do with better, smarter, blah blah...filler filler, beat the dog to death. Lots of thumb sucking and opinion navel gazing. I suggest people look at page one, read, and refer to the links. Call C(see his number) and find out from the source. This is not an ad campaign just an approach aimed to enlighten and share. Leave it at that.
Then decide if its a cool path or not. But the constant thumb sucking and position taking over what's better needs to end.

Nasty told me a long time ago to shut up about how much I loved my set up. Now I am suggesting people look at C's information and take a moment to consider his tune ideology.

This measuring and better comparing, and I have a better path, way, I love my piggy, I don't. ENOUGH

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What is a smoothing factor? And how does it have anything to do with tuning a motorcycle?

For racing, nada. Race is all you can get out of it. Smoothing is more a street tune. And you can use the throttle sync as a smoothing tool. Smooth is clean clutch leave is the smoothing. Clean cylinder pulse means smooth clutch leave. Rich runs the fluff, i.e., the smooth stuff. Smooth is eliminating the buzz at the bars. Smooth is a mirror with only one image not 4 of the same images side by side.

Nasty told me a long time ago to shut up about how much I loved my set up. Now I am suggesting people look at C's information and take a moment to consider his tune ideology.

You know WATT? I could care less if someone sits on a bag gummy bears and that is their ideology. I'm not about to buy jackshit and sit on how much information is ideology is not a real world number. It's a dyno number. It's no more than a preset at some frequency setting... Period!

There is no cam blueprinting, no porting, not even race cams. We are bone stock like a Brock going after everything but pulling the valve cover off and starts to dig down deeper. The example is, She/ane and Cap10 on two different flashes, same bike... No dyno used. Real world.

Step away from this. You are not being objective. I didn't catch that nasty comment, it must have been nasty lol... now getting back to the 14's and 2 flash setups. What I think you are not seeing, Wolfy, is that you are being subjective as if to say: Now don't the both of you go getting upset about goofing on your ass is:

Wolfy: Oh man you should try C's tre hack.
Ivan: I have a tre that will give some gruntoo

Wolfy: Yeah but C uses a 2 ohm resistor.
Ivan: Well, I use the best you can buy.

Wolfy: My 6 runs a lot greener in the dash.
Ivan: I think you need your eyes examined.

Wolfy: Yes, but being on page 5, this is my 5th time I gotta say my tre rocks and piss of nasty somemore!
Ivan: I would also add they examine your head for rocks too.

Wolfy: N then WATT?
Ivan: I've got dibs on page 6.

Wolfy: Bet chew my tre beats you to it!
Ivan: Bet you we need a levereleaser.

Wolfy: I'll call nasty.
Ivan: I'll call 'The Hand."

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Hub, you have zero idea what you are talking about. Smoothing is used in race tuning, that's where it came from. Hit your target points and smooth in between and you lose nothing in power number and gain in power delivery. I used and dynoed a tre hack on my gen I Busa back in 06 and I know exactly how that set-up feels. TRE type hacking is different than building an ignition map. You obviously have never developed a proper tune on a dyno. And the more you talk, the more obvious that becomes. For a fella that runs around spouting NOLTT, you sure have an aversion to it. Shane's bike was running MR-12. And rims, throttle bodies, etc. But not a single other bike at that event did even half the runs over 200 Cap's bike did. 14 runs over 200. Absolutely the most consistent performance by a large margin.

* Last updated by: Cblast on 10/19/2014 @ 1:34 AM *

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You have 'pretty much clicked most of the menus in the pc software'...
That's the extent of your tuning knowledge. It's okay. Just stop trying to speak beyond that. It turns into gibberish.

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FOR hubbsy

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Hub, you have zero idea what you are talking about.

"Kawasaki probably designed the offset fueling for a reason, why would we want to remove it?"
Answer that so I know what YOU are talking about. I don't think you will know and you are toggling things off and do not understand why? Explain that. It should roll right off the tongue FI. Silence came back. Stop jumping over [addressed] posts LOL

Smoothing is used in race tuning, that's where it came from.

I'm going to dyno my bike for max HP or smoothing? NOLTT like I said. I don't chase smooth on a dyno. Rich is fluff so you know that right out of the box she goes smooth. And where are your throttle plates/lows? Bet you have yet to touch those... Yes or no (Cap10? I forgot that one or did I mention the procedure not found in the book?)

Hit your target points and smooth in between and you lose nothing in power number and gain in power delivery.

I would assume target points are to clean up the lag in hp. I can pop the PAIR off and the bike smooths out. That means a touch rich, not leaned out on the reversion. So from 16a to 14a is one hose popped off. Look at the AFR turn rich = Smooth... HP? I'd need a dyno. That's your assfactor speaking about smooth vs. how to chase hp.

I used and dynoed a tre hack on my gen I Busa back in 06 and I know exactly how that set-up feels.

I am going to dyno my bike on the street with my ass and an AFR meter. There is no need for me to find more hp and burn out my bike doing it on a dyno? Where am I going to go with this?

TRE type hacking is different than building an ignition map.

C, I think there is a huge difference between plotting cells and pulling out one wire. However, that tingly tone made, feels like a flash made. Your assfactor should know that or you are spending too much time dyno tuning not ass response, figuring out how close both tone out. You hacked how many wires, one? One tre wire or two it does not matter. You have more to hack but there is no way to get you to feel that tone change of a frequency rip sporting move. So without 9 hacks under your ass, you don't know watt is happening and that is why I bring this up. This is up against the OE is you and Don chasing max hp. I hope that's what you are doing, because you have yet to break 120tq and who showed 121tq? So I have this 118-Cflash against I forget who had the 121tq sheet to show that number? And that says you are up against an OE @ 120tq in the book, then this 121tq fluke of a tune, and She/ane's just radio clicked the speed limiter off.

That's why we are here, Cblast.

You obviously have never developed a proper tune on a dyno.

Never have. Not on my bike. I already found out the difference between injector years on the dyno. Seat of the pants won't pick up that kind of change. Only a drag strip or dyno would show it was that subtle. That subtle when mother tea said, if the busa comes out we have 1 more hp for this model coming. Could you feel 1 hp between an '06 and an '08? I sure could not. Could I tell right off how smooth the disabled PAIR is? Like night and day, yes.

And the more you talk, the more obvious that becomes.

That's why you didn't listen when I questioned the tre hit. I found how the processor works and I'm sure you never came across what the flip-flop was or truth tables were... Be honest. I'm still learning the curve and now dispute what I know about the processor/binary changes you are making in the frequency of it. Notice the 'tone factor.' Not tune, TONE. Swap back to the stock box and notice that tone hit gone.

For a fella that runs around spouting NOLTT, you sure have an aversion to it.

That's so you keep questioning me I throw 3 variables in your face about starting a bbq and you still don't see it....LOL

Shane's bike was running MR-12.

Then 10 dropped the ball in the tank. What's that good for, 1 or 2 hp? That's WOT I see on a dyno is that one move on a single cylinder engine is 1 hp and change.

But not a single other bike at that event did even half the runs over 200 Cap's bike did. 14 runs over 200.

Here is where we cloud things up with this statement. The lack of the field as in, is this an all 14 mile meet? Is this where you have 14 runs against 1000cc bikes and they brought 120lbs of torque to the table? Half the field says we are 'chest pounding'... C: this was a 14 against a 14. This was some raw rider against a seasoned rider. Is this an '013-14 ZX-14's against slower gens? Show me the chest beating of that field.

C, think about it. A removed limiter and not one cell moved from the OE and a pig sent to said ?AFR. Say we match AFR's so we are both TONED to the same AFR... and that's flash vs. pig/limiter only.

Didn't I say to build a 2+2 long ago and are we not there all bone stock?

Absolutely the most consistent performance by a large margin.

It's a brand new bike with the limiter removed. NOLTT when shebooty stretched the rods for some torqueen of the field?

C, I want your flash to win out. May the bestone win.

I have my favorites, so Smoke, may the best flash win.

Alrighty, next chesthumper post. Field of 14's? Can we straighten that field out as to who brought what to this place?

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As to cylinder unification, I felt smoke it addressed it intelligently. Let me clarify, firstly, we don't ever randomly do anything. I think I have shown via plenty of pics and vids that our testing is extensive.
The factory offset helps to account for variable fuel quality across a world market with a fuel efficient, ie:leaner factory map. The machine from the factory tuned lean for fuel economy, emissions, etc., can see temps rise in the #3 cylinder. The offset accounts for, and cools that via a slightly different map. If the mapping in the engine is re-done for a power making afr, the richer condition incumbent in that removes the need for cylinder offset mapping. Tune the bike right, remove the offset, check temps across all cylinders at all operating ranges and loads to include data logging, and you will learn what we know. Tune for performance and the quality of the power with unified cylinders is smoother. Period. The machine performs better with absolutely zero negative affects because the fuel mapping is correct. Again, cylinder mapping unification in race tuning is, and has been standard practice for the exact reasons stated. Maximum quality power.

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This is up against the OE is you and Don chasing max hp. I hope that's what you are doing, because you have yet to break 120tq and who showed 121tq? So I have this 118-Cflash against I forget who had the 121tq sheet to show that number? And that says you are up against an OE @ 120tq in the book, then this 121tq fluke of a tune, and She/ane's just radio clicked the speed limiter off.

You do realize the other guys, and don included, are running 0w oil and a couple other tricks to bump that number up a hair.

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There has to be a formula to this and you did not bring it forward. There is a reason why and it might be as simple as open to close loops? I'm not buying either one. It has something to do with multi injectors sharing one fuel rail. No injector tones out the exact same frequency so even though a spit occurs at the exact crank angle for each injector, formula kicks in with fuel vs. heat. vs. intake load, and that means formula hitting those map changes. When I see it speak simply and walks in steps I'll know it. But right now... I'm not convinced you are close, even though we bring in temp, that's about all we agree on.

Then, you don't know what you are talking about. Can we agree on that? I can explain with plenty of steps how that processor works. And the layman can simply look up flip-flop, truth tables and see formula up the ass in formula.

The factory offset helps to account for variable fuel quality across a world market with a fuel efficient, ie:leaner factory map.

Ouch! Wait a minute. Guys are running low octane fuels, cheap costco crap, and they run with the same factory map. Guys pour in R12 and it makes HP without a map change. Think that chemical reaction out for a second, we bring in penuti the constant/her angle in the same position/the sensor inputs/the injectors opening at the same angle but spitting out 4 different miliamp frequencies, wear patterns, flow, etc, formula, etc. No offense, but that didn't make the walk in the sequential of it.

The machine from the factory tuned lean for fuel economy, emissions, etc., can see temps rise in the #3 cylinder.

No engine is monitoring each cylinder or I'd see a sensor off the barrels/head points. If we had 14's side by side, I doubt they'd all heat at #3. Show me the bin for all the same bikes is individual bins for #3? 'The factory tuned the bike for economy,' but it's the world's fastest still with all the emissions.

The offset accounts for, and cools that via a slightly different map.

The crank angle has yet to change. Look at the crank pickup. You mean the water temp alters the #3 as in a temp move? That water temp does not know which cylinder popped up hotter. The temp moved the maps, not #3... Show me the sensor off #3 to know that happened.

If the mapping in the engine is re-done for a power making afr, the richer condition incumbent in that removes the need for cylinder offset mapping.

I can't see how a team of engineers are making map after map or this machine making tool begins to take all those parameters into account, you come along and shut down systems, use a software that does not match what the factory uses, the unit is built for 02 by one flip of the flop, I can't see if that number is off the scale like the kit-ECU I played with. Granted, binary calls the ball... 'We take measures..'

... The machine performs better with absolutely zero negative affects because the fuel mapping is correct.

I would agree. The tone is the backup so safe are we. Truth table says use this, (not this yet)-walk by, or reject altogether is how the moves are made.

Again, cylinder mapping unification in race tuning is, and has been standard practice for the exact reasons stated. Maximum quality power.

Cblast, it's like we've come full circle all over again. The cap10's cylinder uni and Shane's no time but unlimit it. We are back to uni vs. sequentialing the flip flop.

I think I can now feel Smoke pissing in his pants he can't wait... Shit! too late! Don't get old. I gotta change me diapers.

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