Has anybody try MSD SB6 Programmable Ignition for the Kawasaki ZX-14????

The Power Commander looks to be much more functional unless you need the timing retard feature.

I've got one on mine. It has a ton of features, IF you know how to use them..

I don't. LOL

Has anyone done the homework on this thing to determine the advantages it has over the DJ Ignition module? Both products are capable of:

Launch rev limiter
advance retard timing

My immediate goal is to tune ignition timing but among other things, it looks like the SB6 also can:
* 0-15 programmable progressive nitrous retard
Does this mean the SB6 will function as a progressive controller for my NOS? WOW! I need that.

* 15 seconds of data acquisition
The SB6 logs data? That will prolly be a very handy feature. What data do you suppose it logs?

* Set rpm point for shift light and intensity of light
I plan to use a shift light at some point and the SB6 is all set up for that. Will it be possible to hook up a shift light if I have the DJ Ignition module connected to the crank sensor instead of the SB6?

* Sensor input 0-5 V for TPS, O2, or map sensor
IDK what this even means. Whay would I use that for?

* Shift kill and shift delay
Sounds like it can be used something like a quickshifter but I am guessing only at preset rpm.

Which one should I buy and which will work best with future mods?

SB6

DJ Ignition Module

Has anyone done the homework on this thing to determine the advantages it has over the DJ Ignition module? Both products are capable of:

Rook I'm always playing with timing. Started off with the Dyno-Jet Ignition Module. Next, when MSD-SB6 was released, this was a must have tool for me. Leaps and bounds ahead. Far superior. Love it. Now, as time has progressed we now have the ability to make changes in the ECU directly. Which is what I do.

Which one should I buy and which will work best with future mods?

All of the above work. For your setup the MSD-SB6 has my vote. I still use it for data logging and Full Automatic shifting. Great Tool.

Thanks for the quick response, Romes. I knew I remembered seeing those pics but I was not sure if they were yours. Must have been 2-3 years ago. Funny how these traces of info stick in my memory. Glad my brain is good for something!

* 0-15 programmable progressive nitrous retard
IS this all I need to serve as a progressive controller or should I plan on going to something more elaborate like an Edelbrock (someday).

Advance or retard factory timing +6/-20 degrees
The DJ Ignition Module Allows +20/-20 degrees of spark advance adjustment. The SB6, +6/-20. Seems like the range of adjustment is more limited with the SB6?

I presume a DJ timing map is the same as a SB6 map but they are different kinds of files that require specific manufacturer's software. So I would need to use DJ software for Autotune and PC5. Then MSD software for the SB6? If I went with all DJ products including the ignition module, could I use the same program for all of them or does each DJ product have its own software (software for Auto tune, another software for the ignition module and another for the PC5)? Just considering the possible convenience factor of going all DJ.

Stick with me Romes, more questions are coming to me already.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/29/2016 @ 10:24 PM *

Thanks for the quick response, Romes I knew I remembered seeing those pics but I was not sure if they were yours. Must have been 2-3 years ago. Funny how these traces of info stick in my memory. Glad my brain is good for something!

Well that's one of us. First thing to go is the memory. I'm living proof of it Lol

IS this all I need to serve as a progressive controller or should I plan on going to something more elaborate like an Edelbrock

Edelbrock ?? Here is my Next stop, sweeeeet Click Here

f I went with all DJ products including the ignition module, could I use the same program for all of them or does each DJ product have its own software (software for Auto tune, another software for the ignition module and another for the PC5)? Just considering the possible convenience factor of going all DJ

With DynoJet you have Different map locations all within the same software. Hardware all hard wire linked. Plug and play.

Rook I'm probably not the best person to ask as I will always push the newest latest and greatest tech that comes along. This of course will have you spending more money than is actually required to accomplish the task at hand.

After giving this some more thought, for convenience factor alone, I would now say use the software you are most comfortable with. All users will admit What makes Dyno-Jet products so great is they are user friendly. With that being said hard to look away from a matched combo.

When it comes right down to it all you're looking for is timing retard once Nitrous is activated correct ? So with that being said,,,, coles notes below

With Dyno-jet you install a map switch on the handlebar for your Nos Maps. Very Easy for you as you know the software

MSD-SB6 you turn pot to one of 15 possible positions. Each position has a preloaded map you installed. These maps you save in the hardware via a computer with MSD software. Which you must learn. Sometimes can be tough to remember what each pot position does,,,which sends me looking for a laptop so I can plug in and study. Other than the possibility of Human error The SB6 is my favorite when comparing the two.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. I would suggest download the software for both and play if you on the fence trying to decide. Sorry Rook I know I'm not helping here. Maybe just making this more confusing ???

Edelbrock ?? Here is my Next stop, sweeeeet Click Here

Oh God, don't show me that stuff!!! Electronic dash and all those juicy goodies to hook up into one system!!! That's a step or two beyond the normal products. Not going there yet. The busa will be the turbo bike and maybe I will be able to take it to those dimensions someday.

Both have advantages and disadvantages. I would suggest download the software for both and play if you on the fence trying to decide. Sorry Rook I know I'm not helping here. Maybe just making this more confusing ???

The DJ Ignition Module Allows +20/-20 degrees of spark advance adjustment. The SB6, +6/-20.
I'm going to assume the smaller range of advance is not a problem. Is there any chance I would ever want to advance more than +6 if I go with the SB6?

The DJ Ignition Module Allows +20/-20 degrees of spark advance adjustment. The SB6, +6/-20.
I'm going to assume the smaller range of advance is not a problem. Is there any chance I would ever want to advance more than +6 if I go with the SB6?

Not on the ZX14 that's for sure. Most guys that are buying these items are playing with power adders which increases dynamic compression so we pull timing

My trick or game of play is to study the TPS 100% column of all bikes. Here in this column shows what the Engineers used a Max timing. This row is always my guide(God Row). Never have I ever gone above 2 in the 100% column. In all other columns I have increased as much as 6 4 3 2 to advance. This is where the bottom End wakes up, Big time. Especially on the Gen 1 Bike. That timing map needs work badly. Do you remember that hole in the bottom we all talk about for years but no one could fix ??? Well I just told you how,,,, shhh I think it's a secret. With your new tools I will teach you how.

Only one bike did I ever have reports of Bottom end ping. And this was lugging the motor on a car Dyno. Bike was A 2007 gen1 with a new 2013 1441R motor installed in it and the bike was running 2008 330cc injectors. What a head fuck that was to flash, hurt my head. Point is that timing map remained.

You will enjoy playing with your new toy once you feel the results,,, promise.

Edelbrock ?? Here is my Next stop, sweeeeet Click Here
Oh God, don't show me that stuff!!! Electronic dash and all those juicy goodies to hook up into one system!!! That's a step or two beyond the normal products. Not going there yet. The busa will be the turbo bike and maybe I will be able to take it to those dimensions someday.

Lol, you clicked the Link. Never Ever click the link, always costs money. This is the speech I give myself. Then,,,, I click the damn Link UGH!. I just clicked a link, Now I want to buy a two brothers Exhaust for some unknown reason. See video of the Link I clicked a minute ago. I'm thinking you guys will understand.

OH--YOUCH! oooooOO--Jenny is sure easy on the eyes. I can see you understand where I'm coming from, Romans. Click on stuff and see stuff you can't have. I guess the psychology behind the advertising is that the expensive bike stuff starts to look very attainable compared to the girls. ..those rotten advertising bstards!!

In all other columns I have increased as much as 6 4 3 2 to advance. This is where the bottom End wakes up, Big time. Especially on the Gen 1 Bike. That timing map needs work badly.

Do you remember that hole in the bottom we all talk about for years but no one could fix ??? Well I just told you how,,,, shhh I think it's a secret. With your new tools I will teach you how.

So what about the data logging capability of the SB6? What info will I get that I can't record with my GoPro filming my LCD-200 and OEM instrument cluster? Throttle position, AFR, rpm, gear, mph. I know that's sort of a convoluted way to datalog but if I did this, would I be getting all the info the SB6 would provide?

I'd like to tighten her hardware! Thanks.

Talked with the manufacturer this afternoon. Here's what I got. The guy was so nice, I didn't want to interupt his dinner by keeping him past 5 pm. Will call for more info tomorrow and update this post.

The SB6 is made by MSD Powersorts and has been tested by MPS Racing and used by Ricky Gadson on at least a couple of his bikes that MSD is aware of. Currently the circuit boards are not available at an cost effective price for MSD so there is a holdup in production.

* 15 seconds of data acquisition
The SB6 logs data? That will prolly be a very handy feature. What data do you suppose it logs?

The wheel speed, nice. There is no wheel speed sensor to piggy into, just a sprocket sensor or crankshaft. I suppose the SB6 calculates wheel speed based on crankshaft speed/gear and what tire size and gearing you program the unit for--similar to a Boneville or Speedohealer but but possibly more accurate across the range of mph than the modules used to correct the speedo. I suspect the speedo itself is mechanically unable at registering accurate mph but the electronic sensors that provide the speedo input are probably highly accurate. This is just my guess. The SB6 must also read the crankshaft for exact rpm. Do I need this info? I can see it coming in handy for VERY precise tuning only...like if I want to know if one map made the bike go 1~2 mph faster at X rpm. Otherwise, my LCD-200 will provide accurate tach readings but I would have to trust my Speedohealer corrected speedo for mph data--all filmed by the Go-Pro pointed at the instruments. I'm pretty sure a device that calculates wheel speed would be the most reliable, accurate and consistent way to determine mph.

The timing data might be very helpful. I do not know what the data would look like but if you are tuning timing by X° +/- Y° = Z°, I can see how it would be very reassuring to know exactly what Z ended up being.

* Sensor input 0-5 V for TPS, O2, or map sensor
IDK what this even means. Whay would I use that for?

* Set rpm point for shift light and intensity of light
I plan to use a shift light at some point and the SB6 is all set up for that. Will it be possible to hook up a shift light if I have the DJ Ignition module connected to the crank sensor instead of the SB6?

Advance or retard factory timing +6/-20 degrees
The DJ Ignition Module Allows +20/-20 degrees of spark advance adjustment. The SB6, +6/-20. Seems like the range of adjustment is more limited with the SB6?

More tomorrow.

UPDATE:

Talked to Robert from MSD again this afternoon. I believe I have all my questions about the SB6 answered. There still may be more stuff not mentioned in the ads that the SB6 can be used for. That will have to wait to reveal itself if I can find one of these babies for sale somewhere.

* 0-15 programmable progressive nitrous retard
IS this all I need to serve as a progressive controller or should I plan on going to something more elaborate like an Edelbrock (someday).

* Shift kill and shift delay
Sounds like it can be used something like a quickshifter but I am guessing only at preset rpm.

USB for PC connections

The SB6 has a lot of capabilities that the DJ Ignition Module lacks. The DJ module allows for timing adjustment to individual cylinders and timing mappping/gear. This sounds nice but I'm told the difference in tuning needs between individual cylinders and gears is negligible. Also, no data acquisition or shift kill/kill delay and the shift light compatibility is still uncertain.

There's the details. It seems to fall in line with what Romans said above, the DJ module is a bit more plug and play using the same software as other DJ products (if you use those); the SB6 is set up for more intricate tuning offering data retrieval and it is also designed to work with a shift light and enhance the performance of an auto shifter. The SB6 would be the obvious choice for a race bike. I think anyone who does self tuning is pretty hard core whether they race or not so decide for yourself which you want. The only problem is finding an SB6 for sale. Hopefully this product will be back in production some day soon. The SB6 for the Hayabusa is also out of production for an indefinite time.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/8/2016 @ 6:29 PM *

Good news/bad news. Found an SB6 for the busa. Can't find an SB6 for the 14. Still lookin. Actually need it more for the busa which has Bazzaz fuel management. Bazzaz does not make an onboard real time engine parameter viewer like DJ's POD-300 or LCD-200.

My concerns: SB6 production is currently at a standstill. Some of the cobwebs cleared from my memory and it seems i recall being told this was the case over a year ago. They don't make them anymore and may not ever again. How long will SB6 software be useable if it is not updated to run on new computers?

How old is this SB6 if I buy it? Was it an older model tat may have had some bugs? Will I be able to return if it does not work???? DJ is not as nice but it's all around reliable......... ah--what to do??

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/11/2016 @ 5:50 PM *

Just some musings over the virtues of the SB6 over the DJ Ignition Module. Maybe this will prove helpful for someone else some day.

Researching shift lights on the market. You can hook up a shift light regardless of ignition module. Crank sensor used for connecting ignition controller is only one way. Worse case scenario, you tap into a coil wire with your shift light. I have a quickshifter loom on my coils. Easy to tap into, easy replace if necessary.

The MSD shift light has a selector for rpm right on it so the SB6 would not be advantageous where that light is used.

Actually, a progressive shift light like the Ecliptech would be best for most of my riding.

So shift light compatibility is not a big + for me.

+/- factory timing-- any ignition controller will do this, of course. Nice thing is that the SB6 will tell exactly how many ° before TDC ignition happens.

Nitrous retard-- this must be activated when the NOS button is hit. It pulls timing an additional amount which is a very nice feature. You would not need to switch to a NOS timing map, the NA map becomes a NOS map when NOS is activated. With DJ, you just get a map switch button and change from NA timing to a NOS timing map.

Shift kill and delay. Great for an auto shifter. No use for me at the moment. My quickshifter already produces ignition cut for shifting.

Data acquisition--This is the big advantage of the SB6. The LCD can be recorded with a GoPro but that is not as accurate as the graph the SB6 presents. If you go to this extent in tuning, accuracy must be of utmost importance.

Sensor input-- from the software videos I watched, looks like you can select TPS, MAP or o2. The 14 does not have it's own o2 sensor so I do not think this applies. Autotune has an o2 sensor but Autotune is not conect to the SB6. There is a TPS and MAP sensor that could provide data to the SB6. The TPS or MAP data could be useful. I have a TPS indicator on my LCD and it looks like there is an attachment for a PC5 that can be used to tune by manifold absolute pressure.

Hate to say it but the DJ software looks a lot cooler on the screen than the ProData+ software by MSD and that is weighing into the decision for me.

Looking at a few old threads on other forums, it appears you would need to tap into OEM wires to use some of the functions of the SB6. I need to verify this with MSD. That's not plug and play.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/12/2016 @ 8:43 AM *

I think I have most of the info pretty well straightened out on this. The following is the best assessment I can make of the two ignition controllers without actually owning either. Bare in mind this is totally biased toward my own needs and likes. The SB6 comes out ahead of the Ignition Module but only slightly.

I'm scoring a 1 for "useful" and a 2 for "very useful." -1 is "not good" and -2 is bad. 0 means it is neither useful or bad, just there. I gave a + for functions that I like but don't really consider necessary or expected. - for aspects I don't like but do not consider objectionable enough to demote the overall numeric score.

The big advantage of the SB6 is the data acquisition but that is also it's disadvantage in that it requires some wire splicing.

The Ignition Module performs every important function that the SB6 does but it cannot graph data. I would have to rely on real time visuals fro my LCD-200 for that and that will not be as precise. I did not give the IM any numeric value for OEM style connectors because this is something I really expect. If that is not worth a 1, it is a very big plus compared to wire splicing.

I give the SB6 an overall score of 1 with two pluses. Ignition Module, gets no numeric score at all but nine plusses. To me, this sort of quantifies all the details. The SB6 has an edge for serious tuning but it's looks a little complicated if you want all the functions where the IM is just plug into one OEM connector, ground and shove a couple wires into the PC5--all functions ready.

...but I'm still debating.

* Last updated by: Rook on 3/14/2016 @ 8:53 PM *

Ordered the SB6. Nice device. Highly recomended by Brock and Romans but I'm going to cancel the order or return it.

I just acme across this. I can view data through my LCD or transfer the file to a PC that has Excel. I can make my own graph of the data if I want to view it on a graph.

View with Excel on laptop

View on LCD

If you have an LCD or POD-300, that will provide all the data the SB6 does and then some. Not only that, it's not JUST 15 seconds of data. The video shows the log going to 29 seconds and I imagine you could make a much longer one than that if necessary. Also, you can make multiple log files and retrieve all from a memory card later.

All of the data is collected through the PCV and stored on a memory card in the LCD. NO need to tap any wires, all the electronic info is coming through the stock wiring harness to the PC. G-dammit. This is the obvious way to go. All DJ products / all subject to DJ tech support. All functions active through stock wiring. Timing and fueling is all controlled and monitored/viewed by the same system--no jumping back and forth to see what one system is doing that's not detected by the other.

Only reason to use the SB6 I can see is if you need the autoshift delay. The DJ Ignition Module + LCD or POD300 has everything else except the capability to hold 10 timing maps (who needs 10 timing maps?) and the programmable shift light wire.

Come to think of it, the LCD will hold a few maps. Maybe that would include timing and fueling? So there would be your extra maps available for onboard selection.

Damn. its Sunday. Better call Summit Racing fast and change that order.

Anytime I have had questions about tuning equipment --ANYTIME---call the manufacturer. DJ is great. Bazzaz is also great. I think I was over this all a couple years back with DJ. That's why I started out with the impression that the SB6 was NOT the very best choice for me with my PCV and LCD.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/3/2016 @ 2:19 PM *

Rook when you get serious about stuff you get serious. Great info. It's difficult to believe we just can't find this kind of information. Bit thanks to you, now people can.

You betcha, Vic. I'm on this like flies on sh!t! Been driving Romans nuts with PMs. LOL

I suspect if this was years ago before flashing came into vogue, we'd have not only Romans but several others posting opinions. What seems to have happened was that the advanced tuning electronics came out such a short time before Woolich products that most people went straight to flashing in favor of figuring out self tuning and all the electronic add-ons. Now, they might be looking back so maybe this thread will be some real value in the near future.

For now, I'm sticking with the SB6 for the busa because that has Bazzaz fuel management and Bazzaz does not have an ignition box. Bazzaz does not have a datalogger/realtime monitor like the POD300 or LCD-200 either so the SB6 is a very good alternative but if you got all DJ, seems to me you're best to stay with all DJ. The whole DJ system with POD, PCV, AT and Ignition Module is going to cost a couple hundred more but it all works together and you get the most info and tuning possibilities---if you get into this that much.

...I will ad this, the SB6 might just be the best choice for racing applications because of the 2 stage launch limiter which allows you to establish 2 rpm limits while you're in the clutch. Also the 2 stage shift delay/kill function which allows time for the mechanical parts to move and then the shift to happen. ..and the programmable shift light wire. If that enables different shift light activation/gear, I can see how it would trim a couple more tenths/second off your drag racing time than an ordinary shift light...not to mention the use of an autoshifter which the SB6 seems to be very useful for. SB6 owners also speak of delving into hidden tuning possibilities and other functions that have been unexplored. I'll figure all that out on the busa and be able to make a comparison based on experience but all I have for now is research and other people's opinions.

http://www.dragbike.com/tech-review-the-msd-sb6-is-not-like-sea-monkeys/

Sticking with DJ has to be the farthest thing from sea-monkeys. So far, all the tuning equipment I've gotten, Bazzaz and DJ has done what it claimed. I'm sure there are other companies making good stuff out there too.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/3/2016 @ 2:54 PM *

Cancelled SB6. Ordered Ignition Module V. Should be here end of the month.

This is running a bit off topic but talking to the DJ guy, the POD-300 is a bit more user friendly than the LCD-200. DJ was having a lot of LCD-200s come in for service when the only problem was that the owner did not know how to configure the device. The POD-300 has data logging capability but does not require a memory card. The data can be viewed on a PC using Excel to display grids or Winipep software to show graphs like the SB6 does. The SB6 allows you to plot your ignition curve over 7 plotting points on the graph while with the Ignition Module, I guess you just have to change the numbers manually. That's more labor intensive but it achieves the same end.

You betcha, Vic. I'm on this like flies on sh!t! Been driving Romans nuts with PMs. LOL

Not to worry Rook, I'm a East Coast Canadian. Which means very Easy Going. With that being said keep asking and I will do my very best to explain. Very hard to do online as I can't put both displays up on screen to show you the pros and cons of both set ups.

I suspect if this was years ago before flashing came into vogue, we'd have not only Romans but several others posting opinions. What seems to have happened was that the advanced tuning electronics came out such a short time before Woolich products that most people went straight to flashing in favor of figuring out self tuning and all the electronic add-ons. Now, they might be looking back so maybe this thread will be some real value in the near future.

Yes Flashing. This being the third way.

Ok what's the job of tools listed above ? Advance or retard the timing is the main purpose correct.

In keeping this discussion very very simple My likes are,,,,,

SB6 We can advance or retard timing of the Kawi given setting using a graph. Hold and drag the dots up or down. Very Very Easy to use. RPM Based "ONLY" from what I can remember.

Dyno-Jet Ignition module there is a little more to it. With this software you advance or retard stock Kawi numbers using throttle position locations along with the use of RPM cells. What I don't like about this is the setting are based on a very crude set of throttle percent location numbers that join in with RPM Locations. This software is also based on the interpretation of Dyno Jet software makers as to the proper location of the numbers.

ie, what happens "between" these TPS positions ? RPM jumps 250 RPM at a time ? Crude. I want 30% at 125 RPMs and I can't have it. We are blind make sense ?

TPS 2% 5% 10% 20% 40% 60% 80% 100%
RPM
250
500
750
1000
1250
1500
etc

Ok, on to the Flash compare. Here we can change "EACH and Every Cell" at its Exact location in time. Love it. No other info to be translated after the signal is sent, no piggy back controllers to manipulate the signal after info is sent from the Stock ECU. This is by far the way to go,,,,, but,,,, you need to know Exactly what you want as there is no adjustment after the fact. Unless of course you buy all the software and start building your own flash.

Now once again this is not hard to do, Not Rocket Science as many would have you believe. Doing the changes your self greatly reduces the guess work as you can see the numbers that Kawi engineers wanted the bike to run with.

For example you may have read posts where I tell guys do not spray Nos or boost with A Flashed ECU. I give the warning not that anyone listens but the warning has been given. In your case Rook you have to take my word for it. which is wrong. Next, your going to add or subtract without ever really knowing what your doing as the real world info is blind to you. Luckily I will post graphs with screen shots showing the do and do nots as I see it. Then you push the button.

Rook I did not touch on the additional features of Each additional tool. I do realise this also may be the reason for buying one or the other. I justed wanted to share my point of view having played extensively with all of the above.

Anyway, now I'm rambling I've been working 80 hour work weeks. I will re read what I just wrote tomorrow to see if it makes any sense Lol

Hi Romans. I’ve just been thinking out loud for the next couple posts so if you want to peruse the pictures and comments then skip ahead to my last post, that might save you several minutes. I think I have my main 3 questions there.

Makes perfect sense to me. The main function of these modules is to change timing and the SB6 can do so in much smaller increments. I saw how the SB6 timing is manipulated in their tutorial videos. What they show is 7 plot points but this is a little deceptive. Apparently there are many many points between the plots that change when you adjust the 7 plots.

LOL I'm not about to change my order again! I'm sticking with DJ. The complete Dynojet setup allows the best datalogging and most conveniently accessed (through stock wiring harness). The timing is limited. The ideal setup would be LCD for datalogging, Autotune, and SB6 for timing adjustment.

Should I change this order again?

...and also, it strikes me that the fuel tables are also set up just as you described the ignition maps. You have this 0, 2, 5, 10, 20, 40, 60, 80, 100% TP and then rpm in increments of 250. What if you want to adjust fueling at 85% TP at 8700 rpm? Can't do it. So if I can't do it with fueling, should I really worry about doing it with timing?

DJ fuel map pic I just grabbed off the web for reference.

random DJ ignition table

ie, what happens "between" these TPS positions ? RPM jumps 250 RPM at a time ?

Same goes for timing tables.

So if fueling is that crude, should I be concerned about making timing any less crude?

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/6/2016 @ 2:06 PM *

Also, can we REALLY call DJ "crude" if it takes throttle position and rpm into consideration where the SB6 only considers rpm disregarding TP altogether? We go for the same AFR at all rpm and all throttle openings. Would you want different timing for small throttle openings than you would for large throttle openings or is rpm all that needs to be considered?

Here we have an SB6 graph. The horizontal axis is rpm (assuming the 0 mark is idle, this graph goes up to 12500 rpm). The vertical axis is timing adjustment. The dots can be moved left or right/ up or down however you want them. Presumably, the timing changes very gradually as the engine climbs in rpm, perhaps in tiny steps every time the line crosses a grid line or maybe even multiple times between grid lines. Either way, that would be a very subtle and smooth change in timing adjustment from 0 to -7°. The Ignition Module timing would be much more choppy but it would changed to accommodate not only rpm but various throttle openings as well -if there is any value to that.

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/6/2016 @ 2:03 PM *

The final questions:

Romans, If you could answer each 1), 2), 3), 4) (and don't miss any please!), I will be able to determine if I should change my order back to the SB6.

1) if my AFR tuning is limited by a grid of 250 rpm x 0,2,5,10, 15, 20 40 60 , 80, 100% TP, wouldn't the same sort of grid be adequate for tuning timing?…or does timing benefit a lot from more intricate steps from one cell to the next on a timing map?

2) I know you already told me early on in this thread or maybe it was PMs that the individual cylinder tuning capability of the Ignition Module is negligible. The ignition Module would also enable me to tune/gear. Is there any benefit to tuning/gear or does the AFR not even know or care what gear the bike is in?

3) Seems like gear and cylinder tuning would have to help to compensate for the leaps in TP increments that the DJ tables are constrained by. True?

4) I might just have to buy flash software someday ASAP. When you compare tuning by modules to tuning by flash, are the shortcomings in TP cells (or lack thereof as is the case with the SB6) even relevant? I imagine the Woollich tables might be 10x more intricate than either DJ or SB6 and still include TP and possibly be capable of tuning/gear and tuning/ cylinder if you want. Is this so?

* Last updated by: Rook on 4/6/2016 @ 3:29 PM *

Also, can we REALLY call DJ "crude" if it takes throttle position and rpm into consideration where the SB6 only considers rpm disregarding TP altogether? We go for the same AFR at all rpm and all throttle openings. Would you want different timing for small throttle openings than you would for large throttle openings or is rpm all that needs to be considered?

Well maybe word "Crude" is a little harsh. All the above get the job done and they all do it well. In regards to the SB6. This tool adds the number you pick to whatever info is sent to it from the ECU. This is beautiful in it's simplicity.

Now with Dyno Jet you may have noticed most timing maps are shown with all 5s to the advance,then all 4s then all 3s 2s and then 0s. If this is so, now you understand no one knows the when and the where in throttle position they are. So they make the 20% throttle position all 4s in the entire RPM range. So basicly you just copied what the SB6 is doing,,,, Make sense ??

Either way, that would be a very subtle and smooth change in timing adjustment from 0 to -7°.

Yes, the word Smooooth for the SB6 is a nice one. I hope you can see in the Dyno Jet timing map you have shown above is all is guees work. Not knowing the where and when is very difficult because you can't see the info sent from ECU.

For example, the zx14 timing numbers from the ECU peek around 6000 RPM. (Save the #) From here the timing numbers begin the down slop. When we play with timing we need to do the same as the engineers did or boom. A straight line of numbers with Dyno Jet is and has to be a Guess. So begs the question at what TP and at what rpm are you hitting the NOS Button ? Is it not safer to just pull timing across the entire RPM Scale like the SB6 does. Who cares if the TPS at 20% at 10,000 rpm gets pulled. You don't and cant ride there. Well not that you would ever want to while spraying NOS anyway.

Rook when I was going to spray my bike the plan was to keep it real simple. Install a micro switch that turns on NOS only at 100% throttle. Here with Dyno Jet the 100% timing row gets timing pulled. The end. Let of throttle just a hair and Nos shuts off. No buttons for me. I don't trust me. If only going 40 shot Simple is best IMO. Keep it simple real simple. Make sense ? Dyno Jet Fuel using only 100% column. Dyno Jet Ignition 100% Column. NOS on only when all settings lookin at 100%. Bike lives.

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/7/2016 @ 10:06 AM *

1) if my AFR tuning is limited by a grid of 250 rpm x 0,2,5,10, 15, 20 40 60 , 80, 100% TP, wouldn't the same sort of grid be adequate for tuning timing?…or does timing benefit a lot from more intricate steps from one cell to the next on a timing map?

Rook, I will answer this from my point of view. Your model year has one shitty timing map. There is a hole in the bottom where we ride all the time. So the answer is yes and no. Yes the grid is adequate and will work well. And no the intricate steps in each cell to fix the bottom are needed. When you get to this point in your maps I can show you the way. This is only because I can see behind the ECU curtain. Seeing inside the ECU tells all. This why I had to give such a Bullshit answer. Sorry not my intention to confuse.

2) I know you already told me early on in this thread or maybe it was PMs that the individual cylinder tuning capability of the Ignition Module is negligible. The ignition Module would also enable me to tune/gear. Is there any benefit to tuning/gear or does the AFR not even know or care what gear the bike is in?

Your timing maps are the same in all gears. What is different in your model year is your secondary throttle maps. Grouped 1,2 & 3,4 & 5,6. Tuning Each gear I don't do. No need.

Fueling for each cyclinder is different. Kawi Engineers tuned each cyclinder fuel different.

Off Topic, I feel the need mention the 3D tuning effect of timing and secondary plates. Now there is a difference you can feel over taking the plates out alone. But,,, I can't see how the ECU gets told to look at what timing row outside the TP sensor. Story for later.

3) Seems like gear and cylinder tuning would have to help to compensate for the leaps in TP increments that the DJ tables are constrained by. True?

Rook I use to think about this allot. Always wanted a 02 sensor in each cyclinder. Now my thinking is as long as my AFR is "Exactly" where I want it, I don't over complicate things. AFR is God to me. The old story that the more elbows you install in the pipe the easier it is to clog up the plumbing remains true today.

Now would tuning each gear and each cylinder help,,,, yes I guess so but where does it end. I almost went mad chasing this info years ago. Every time I got my bike off a Dyno it ran like crap. Bottom end was always a mess. Load induced dyno's don't stimulate my weight, my strain on the motor. There for my fueling was always off. I chased the tune. Hundreds of wasted hours,,,, well I learned allot

Anyway Rook my only real advice is Keep It Simple. Every cyc, Every Gear, Hot Day, Cold Day, sensors, computers, internet BS will all drive you mad, Ask me how I know. Getting real world results is all that matters IMO.

Pic shows two sensors in one pipe data logging all info.

Pic shows How I Log For Perfect AFR

* Last updated by: Romans on 4/7/2016 @ 11:16 AM *