What a cool gadget this POD 300 is. Not that I'm punting anyone's product and also considering I have no experience with data logging. This is so easy to set up and use, or at least from a downloading data logged etc. seeing what your AFR is whilst you ride is really cool and reassuring. i can also see AFR numbers where autotune and PCV is in zero so I even know what the bike is running even in stock areas not influenced by the Autotune. It gives me slot more confidence knowing after trims whether it on the right track or not.

Romans when do we start gear by gear tuning?

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Romans when do we start gear by gear tuning?

I'm all ears!

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Hey guys been out of it for a bit as I have been playing with Boost on the snowmobiles.

Was thinking to put a camera in my garage to film the odd really stupid things that can and occasionally do happen. In this case my sled was over Boosting (25lbs) and while I was playing with the wastegate hoses the sled fell off the stand and proceeded in a wheelie out of my garage riderless.

Had the garage door not been open and truck in the way ???? Could have made for some great video of sheer bad luck stupidity. Shit Can and does indeed happen. Only damage was studs in track dug a hole in my garage floor. Grrrr. I laugh at it now but at the time scared the shit out of me. Kept quite for a bit. ugh !

That's what I have been playing with, What about you guys, Where are you guys now with your tuning ? Must all be pros by now running perfect AFR #'s Do tell. Things appear to quiet around here. Must be some of you building something that burns gas. Do Tell.

. I laugh at it now but at the time scared the shit out of me. Kept quite for a bit. ugh !

I was wondering where you were Romans. I figured you were busy at work (WORK work, that is). Hope you have a lot of snow soon. We just have a half inch of damp snow in Upper MI and I expect it will be gone in a couple days.

I'm just emerging from the state of disarray that was caused by moving. A lot of time has been wasted but I have managed to tape up my foreman fins. Plan to do some dark blue accents on that and the fender. Maybe try some blue inside the ram air intake. Hopefully I will get to carving out my NOS brackets but I already know that is going to be a huge project that could take months to complete.

Where are you guys now with your tuning ?

That starts in late March for me. I can't wait to get into it! I have the info location memorized, page 24 of Roman's Flash thread. I'd love to do a tutorial based on that.

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Romans I would love to see those maps please.

Full Power Mode

Safety Mode

You're the man

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shhhh, the above is a secret lol

When I owned my Ninja 650 I built a custom map using most of these methods. Ran way better than the stock map. Very excited to to this again when I get the big Ninja. Romans, you certainly filled in some gaps for me on the tuning procedure. I wish I could do this stuff for a living.

* Last updated by: darkarcher on 1/19/2016 @ 9:27 AM *

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Romans, you certainly filled in some gaps for me on the tuning procedure. I wish I could do this stuff for a living.

darkarcher I must admit currently I do share your passion Lol. Love it and I'm sure I always will. When the AFR #'s all line up you know All Is As It Should Be.

that's my goal the summer. Ignition module + Auto tune + PC5 = just as good as a flash.

Great Combo, you will Love it. I ran that way for years on my Gen 1s. I have the maps you need, send me a PM after install. We will get you sorted.

I've been asking why this setup is any worse than a flash ever since 14s have been getting flashed. Only thing, you can't increase the rev limiter without flashing and that is important for the Gen2.

Hey Rook you didn't ask me ? Or maybe I missed it.

I will answer this over under Romans Flash as it would seem Flash talk is about to take over. And this has to happen in order to explain with detail.

Pic Shows Dyno-Jet Ignition Map. Rook look closely at the throttle positions across the top. Then Look To the RPM window down the side

Pic shows Gen 1 Timing Map. Now look at the refinement if you compare the two.

I've been asking why this setup is any worse than a flash ever since 14s have been getting flashed. Only thing, you can't increase the rev limiter without flashing and that is important for the Gen2.

Hey Rook you didn't ask me ? Or maybe I missed it.

Oh yes, we had a pretty lengthy PM convo. I have all the salient points copied to a document which fortunately was recovered after the old computer bit the dust. I have not read over it recently but I recall you telling me the Gen1 will probably not benefit from running past 11000 rpm but the Gen2 can be tuned to keep making more power all the way past the OEM rev limiter. Also, if I'm running nitrous as I plan to eventually do, flashed timing maps for an NA bike will probably not be safe for my engine and the fueling will obviously not be right either. So for me, flashing would be a process of redoing the ECU maps and then undoing what was redone with the ignition module. If there is no benefit to raising the rev limiter on a Gen1, and I will need to have very different timing and fueling maps than an NA bike, I might as well stick with the old DJ products all by themselves.

I have the maps you need, send me a PM after install. We will get you sorted.

I will take you up on the maps. You were kind enough to email me your fueling map already. That is one document that did not survive the computer crash. I just transferred it a few days ago and it is toast "cannot execute binary file." Maybe it is inaccessible because I am not using DJ software to open it?? So, I will message you when the time comes to get another copy of that or figure out how to use the one I have. Thanks, bro.

Pic shows Gen 1 Timing Map. Now look at the refinement if you compare the two.

The refined ignition map has much larger numbers. When the rpm gets in the range where you are actually riding, the difference looks very significant and in the upper revs the difference is huge.

WAIT! Holy crap! Are you running a Gen1 all the way to 15000 rpm?

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/17/2016 @ 7:51 PM *

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I recall you telling me the Gen1 will probably not benefit from running past 11000 rpm but the Gen2 can be tuned to keep making more power all the way past the OEM rev limiter.

Correct, you have a Good memory.

Also, if I'm running nitrous as I plan to eventually do, flashed timing maps for an NA bike will probably not be safe for my engine

Flashed is timing added. Others may tell you different but take my word for it,,,, not a Good idea. To many in the past have Blown up the Gen1s with stock timing. Guys that did blow up always blame it on the Gaskets or the Head studs. You will never read anything about too much timing. 32.5 is already over Max. We have even made more power by pulling a degree in the Gen1s. With that being said what do you think happens when Nos or Boooost gets added ? Ans; Max compression stroke no longer occurs at 5 to 15 degrees after top dead center. Dynamic compression changes so timing numbers need to change to reflect on the increase in pressure. Very Important info if your going to play here.

Whenever I read guys are going with Nos on a flashed ECU It's all I can do to stay out of the convo. I want to say something but can't. It would only serve to cause trouble. But yes I know exactly what's in all those Flashed ECU's and it's Not Good for power adders. Ask anyone who has tried it.

and the fueling will obviously not be right either.

Big subject, you're going to read run the bike Rich. You will be told a Rich AFR is going to keep the pistons safe as the Extra fuel keeps them cool. This may be true to a very small degree. If you study the numbers you will quickly learn gasoline has a very piss poor latent heat of evaporation effect. When Running rich the true story is the rich AFR slows down the flame front. In a sense what is happening is timing is being pulled to add in safety. Liquid timing in a sense.

f there is no benefit to raising the rev limiter on a Gen1, and I will need to have very different timing and fueling maps than an NA bike, I might as well stick with the old DJ products all by themselves.

Install a Map switch on your handlebar and now you can Run dual maps in your PCV. When your going to spray NOS Flip switch and you're Golden.

Or buy a second ECU and flip back and forth. Your call. I can build it for you either way.

WAIT! Holy crap! Are you running a Gen1 all the way to 15000 rpm?

If the bike was still making power at that RPM we could flash it in, Sadly it's not. F1 Car lol

Anything Else inside these ECU's you guys want to see ? No one seems to be flaming me,,, Yet

Whenever I read guys are going with Nos on a flashed ECU It's all I can do to stay out of the convo.

I pretty much always tell people that they will need to tune after a flash just because of what has been discussed over the past few pages of this thread. IF THE FLASH WAS CREATED ON BIKE A, IT MIGHT STILL BE WAY OFF FOR BIKE B. Closer to perfect but maybe still far from. This is so simple if you just come to grips with the fact that every engine is unique. Now if you throw NOS into the mix, how much more different is bike B?

[quote]

f there is no benefit to raising the rev limiter on a Gen1, and I will need to have very different timing and fueling maps than an NA bike, I might as well stick with the old DJ products all by themselves.

Install a Map switch on your handlebar and now you can Run dual maps in your PCV. When your going to spray NOS Flip switch and you're Golden.

I plan to use a map switch between NA and NOS maps as you described. What I am concerned about is the confusion that would arise by comparing my present mapping with tuning refinements that I will do. For example, I can just throw the map I got from the tuner into my PCV, accept trims and it will provide me with a good starting point for tuning. I could do the same with your map. I can also compare your map or maps I create to stock mapping very easily. If I flash, the stock maps are gone from the ECU and are replaced by Romans maps. I'm sure it would be very possible to figure out the stock numbers with some simple math but that would be pretty cumbersome given the number of cells we have on a map. If I ever forget the plusses and minusses to calculate the stock mapping, I would be lost. I guess most people who want a flash want to forget the stock mapping forever but I'd like to be able to refer back to it with as little confusion as possible. It seems less complicated to calculate 12.2 AFR at 5500 rpm in the 30% column is -10.5%. If the mapping is flashed, it might be -5.6% because your mapping of that cell was 4.9% leaner than stock. I would have to have a list of all of this numbers to calculate stock fueling and it would invite the possibility of a lot of errors. Bottom line, if the increased rev limiter isn't going to help me, I see no reason to flash since I will have all the tuning equipment to make the trims I need anyway. A Gen2 with it's increased rev limiter benefits would be a whole different story.

Or buy a second ECU and flip back and forth.

...or I could do that but comparing it to the maps I made from the flashed ECU would still be just as confusing. The ECU is the absolute baseline. Flashed or unflashed, pick your poison.

blah-blah-blah...I think I have my mind made up to not flash right now --perhaps a little ironically, from conversations you and I had about flashing. After the stock mapping is tuned, I don't see why I would decide to flash. I'd be starting the process all over again.

Anything Else inside these ECU's you guys want to see ? No one seems to be flaming me,,, Yet

How about tuning/gear?? Seems two me untamed made a map for neutral and then went straight to tuning 6th gear. So he runs the same mapping for 6th as he does for 1st. Any advantages two making separate maps for each gear? If the process is the same, seems it will be hard to make a map for lower gears where the rpm climbs fast.

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/19/2016 @ 10:02 PM *

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Rook from what I'm reading you have a Good grasp what you are trying to achieve with your Nos Project. My Quick points are to keep you safe from engine failure.

Knowing and understanding to much timing already exists in Gen1. Dyno-Jet Ignition Module Check.

Fueling will be a issue. PCV with Autotune Check. Start off rich and tune towards the lean Not the other way. Check

Map switch for dual maps. Check. You need No one, you have the tools and understand how to use them.

How about tuning/gear?? Seems two me untamed made a map for neutral and then went straight to tuning 6th gear. So he runs the same mapping for 6th as he does for 1st. Any advantages two making separate maps for each gear? If the process is the same, seems it will be hard to make a map for lower gears where the rpm climbs fast.

Rook I personally don't see the need to map each gear.

If the fuel maps were different in Each gear from Kawi it would make sense. If the timing numbers were different in Each Gear from Kawi would also make sense. This would point to AFR study. Then I would be all over it. I recommend keeping it simple. Let autotune do all the work in the lower gears.

My tuning style is AFR. Find the fastest AFR and tune your bike your fuel to attain that number. 13.1 AFR for the Gen1s, 13.8 Gen2s Very simple. Anyone can do it.

You need No one, you have the tools and understand how to use them.

I'm on my way but I'm sure i will have questions when I actually get into this.

Rook I personally don't see the need to map each gear.

How about tuning for each cylinder or each bank? I remember the pic you posted of the guy with the o2 sensor on each head pipe. LOL four Power Commanders on one bike!

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How about tuning for each cylinder or each bank? I remember the pic you posted of the guy with the o2 sensor on each head pipe. LOL four Power Commanders on one bike!

Now here is something I always wanted to get into. First I will tell you reason I don't.

First and foremost, kawi tunes each cylinder different for a reason. What that reason is has always escapes me. Is it cooling ? Injector spacing with regards to pressure behind each injector ? water jackets, Who really knows why they do it but all manufactures clearly have a good reason as this method appears to be the Norm across the manufactures.

Which is also why I Do Not unify cylinder Fuel Maps in the flash as one other flasher here does. Not saying it's wrong but when you unify fuell cells you're basically saying the Engineers Science is misguided or they do not know what they are doing. Now that's One Big Big Claim. So for me I will Not play here.

Another reason is the dozens and dozens of plug reads do not show the Need. All this points to Let the Engineers have this one and don't mess with it. These bikes have a great deal of science behind them. with time the science has come a long way. Lol In my two strokes I ran a mixture of jets for each cylinder. Needles were all in different locations. Here spark plugs told the story on how to tune. Then the Air Temperature would change and the entire process started all over again. What a pain.

Currently the masses tune using combined cylinder 02 reading. No one is reporting anyone one cylinder needs to be adjusted. I say just keep it simple go with what works. Flying in the face of the Engineers does not seem like the best approach. Roll the dice.

Do you want to see your Fuel maps ? Each cylinder fuel map will show you differences of up to 6% if my memory serves. I have spent considerable time studying here. But do forget maybe a refresh will help us both. Let me know.

Rick, is ignition timing uniform across all cylinders or is timing individually calibrated like fuel?

Have you considered individual cylinder exhaust temperature reading/logging?

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Rick, is ignition timing uniform across all cylinders or is timing individually calibrated like fuel?

Ignition timing is uniform across Both Generation ZX14s. Busa runs the two inside cylinders with different timing.

Here's one: If the stock rev limiter is 11000 rpm, I would think the stock fueling only goes to 11000 rpm. The columns in the stock fuel table beyond 11k must be blank. If the rev limiter was raised to 12500 rpm, how did you tune for the range between 11k and 12.5k? I suppose you had to guess at what the fueling would most likely be and fill in manually before doing your tuning runs?

Given that, what is the highest rpm you tuned for on the Gen1 and the Gen2?

* Last updated by: Rook on 2/21/2016 @ 11:03 AM *

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Who really knows why they do it but all manufactures clearly have a good reason as this method appears to be the Norm across the manufactures.

ou're basically saying the Engineers Science is misguided or they do not know what they are doing. Now that's One Big Big Claim. So for me I will Not play here.

These bikes have a great deal of science behind them. with time the science has come a long way.

Flying in the face of the Engineers does not seem like the best approach.

This is true wisdom. That doesn't mean the engineers haven't left us room to play, but it has to be on their turf. You step outside their line... poof.

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Rick, a thermocouple in each head pipe when changing fueling in individual cylinders could prove interesting.

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Rick, a thermocouple in each head pipe when changing fueling in individual cylinders could prove interesting.

I apologize because you addressed your question to Double R, but I'm gonna get in anyway.

I like where your hade is. Your wanting answers from each cylinder regarding its individual performance. This is good thinking. I have much XP with couples and as such say lambda sensors are the better choice because they measure exactly what we are hunting: free oxygen. Thermocouples only sense temperature change... many things can influence exhaust temperature apart from AFR. Only one thing can influence free oxygen regarding AFR.

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Rick, a thermocouple in each head pipe when changing fueling in individual cylinders could prove interesting.

Oh ya,,, don't get me excited lol Love testing.

I apologize because you addressed your question to Double R, but I'm gonna get in anyway.

Lol, I'm a East Coast Canadian. Which means Nothing matters and so what if it did. we take ourselves lightly.

I like where your hade is. Your wanting answers from each cylinder regarding its individual performance. This is good thinking. I have much XP with couples and as such say lambda sensors are the better choice because they measure exactly what we are hunting: free oxygen. Thermocouples only sense temperature change... many things can influence exhaust temperature apart from AFR. Only one thing can influence free oxygen regarding AFR.

Ahhh Hagrid I was into this years back. I let it go. Not because of the science was flawed but because I was wasting my time. And I do mean lots of time.

Now for me it's a Bosh 02 sensor bringing in a AFR read and I'm done. When I'm told my stock compression Turbo Bikes won't push four lbs I go for eight lbs and pull some timing. Build the motor and went 24lbs of boost could have gone for 29lbs. I have never blown up. In turbo world that a big deal. To your point, Heat won't get me ,,,,, ignition timing is our Bomb and I know it. No one speaks of it but its very simple. With power adders Reduce timing or blow up then blame parts, bike, gaskets etc. Especially in the Gen1.

Question for you guys reading here. Why do you think Kawi pulled 2.5 degrees of timing in the Gen 2 ????????????????? Yes Gen 1 max timing at wide open throttle is 32.5. The max timing in the Gen2 is dropped to 30.0

Anyone ?

What happens if we plug in 2.5° into 1441 engine?

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What happens if we plug in 2.5° into 1441 engine?

The bike picks up roughly 2 to 3 hp and the map begins to mirror the Gen1 in the upper RPM range.