Why? Are the OEM valve springs too weak to close the valves fast enough over 11,500 rpm?

It's a risk.

You'll need springs made from mat'l that has a higher harmonic frequency.

Beta C titanium is usually what the race teams use. If you're buying valve springs ask what wire they used to wind them. Better yet, ask where they got the wire.

Thanks for valve spring info. Looks like I will be doing at least that to beef up the engine.

We're getting off of the topic of Roman's flash and talking about NOS. The point seems to be that if you are running boost, your engine tuning needs are going to be a lot different than a flash for a NA engine. Unless I can get my own Woolich software, the best thing for me to do is to use an ignition module and Autotune to tune timing and fueling. I don't know if I will gain anything by raising the rev limiter on my Gen1 so maybe I would be better off to leave that stock as well. It would be wise to use a progressive controller to avoid spraying on the the rev limiter no matter what the rev limiter was set at.

This thread going to get me in trouble, but I believe you have the right to know. OK,,brought this over.

Rook there have been many motors in that Gen 1 Bike fail due to timing. IMO 32.5 Is Way To Much for Boost or Nos. You will read over and over, "Run the motor Rich" for these set ups. The belief is Extra Fueling keeps the pistons cool letting the motor live. When in actual fact Gasoline has a Piss Poor latent heat of vaporisation affect. The extra fuel is not what's saving you.

What is really happening is the Extra fuel is slowing down the flame front. Thus using fuel to retard the timing in a sense. Max compression stroke is usually meant to occur 5 to 15 degrees after top dead center. With the increased dynamic compression from the Nos or Boost your timing is pushed back to less than 5. Max compression at top dead center is Boom. So we blame pistons springs etc. Rebuild do it again. UGH !

For my own Gen 1 Bike I pulled the WOT throttle timing. Over Boosted a All stock Motor for three full years. Ran 10 lbs of Boost and a leaner AFR. Even after the world told me not possible. That bike She lives today. To many have said to me impossible,,,, Well, I'm doing it again in the 14R. I was Told Max was 4lbs of Boost, I went 6lbs. Today going to 8lbs. My blow up maybe coming. 320 hp ALL STOCK Motor. Those of you know me know I Don't Lie. Ever !

Now with Current ECU flashes on the sceen guys have Ramped up Timing Again for small gains and huge Risk.

Fact is Kawi pulled timing in the 14R down to 30 degrees at wide open throttle on the 14R. Which is down from 32.5 in the Gen 1 We flashers boldly Ramped Timing back up to pick up 2 hp and Dyno Bragging Rights.

Just so you know the truth, the flash alone pics up 4 hp from a 8% leaner AFR, bumps up to 6 to 7hp with timing advanced. Now flashed we ride the wire. Get some bad Gas and ???? This kind of thinking Boggles the mind. But ok I get it. More is More.

Fact, with regards to the 14R, this new bike does not need much work. Most of you give guys give us credit we Don't deserve. Yet we take it and raise the flag.

Back to the point,,,, if you're going to spray the bike you better "NOT" Have a Flashed ECU or my bet is you Blow Up,,,

Unless, of course you Slow Down That Flame Front by running with a Rich AFR. Which, as you may know costs HorsePower,,, Timing pulled cost hp,,,, so Most won't do it, Vicious circle.

So coles Notes in short I hope this info helps some of you.

Yes change the springs Always good insurance.

Romans - if I'm understanding correctly, if you are not boosting and don't have Nos then also don't advance timing when you flash. Rather leave it stock?

Romans - if I'm understanding correctly, if you are not boosting and don't have Nos then also don't advance timing when you flash. Rather leave it stock?

Just so you know the truth, the flash alone pics up 4 hp from a 8% leaner AFR, bumps up to 6 to 7hp with timing advanced. Now flashed we ride the wire. Get some bad Gas and ???? This kind of thinking Boggles the mind. But ok I get it. More is More.

What I'm reading is, 'making fueling as lean as reasonably possible produces a 4 hp gain. Advancing timing as much as reasonably possible produces an additional 2-3 hp.' The problem is that "as much as reasonably possible" means we have gone to the extreme with little margin for error. The stock fueling and timing have a comfortable margin for error if you should get some bad gas or who knows what else....but they don't give us the hp. If you are NOT running boost, your probably ok but you are riding the edge a bit. If you ARE running boost, the lean fueling and advanced timing of a flash are going to be pretty risky.

Is that right Romes?

* Last updated by: Rook on 5/3/2015 @ 9:26 AM *

What I'm reading is, 'making fueling as lean as reasonably possible produces a 4 hp gain.

Yes, numbers are Dyno dependant of course.

Pulling timing as much as reasonably possible produces an additional 2-3 hp.'

No, Advancing timing I think you meant to say produces more hp. Pulling timing cost power brings in safety. This is only advised if power adders is your game

The stock fueling and timing have a comfortable margin for error if you should get some bad gas or who knows what else....but they don't give us the hp.

Exactly.

Romans - if I'm understanding correctly, if you are not boosting and don't have Nos then also don't advance timing when you flash. Rather leave it stock?

If you have made the choice to Flash your ECU my advise is take it all or what's the point. More is More. Just keep in mind Hot summer day bike running Hot 87 octane which may not be 87 is Not Your Friend. Be smart and all is Good.

Keep in mind this is only one mans opinion others may feel differently. Just wanted you to understand that sometimes less is more depending on the Applications. This approach has kept me from blowing up. So far anyway.

Romans- I ask this question based on never having flashed any of my motorbikes and also having little knowledge on it either. It's also not so common here as it is in the States. I believe maybe because it was mainly done in racing circles and not for street bikes. Now it's becoming more popular with street bikes.

I read all the benefits people on this forum are having and I am looking into it. I have found guys that can do it here (would love to send it over to you but it's way too expensive to ship there and back) none the less I want to go into it as you say "be smart". Admittedly I'm still skeptical about flashing but if it does what everyone says it does I want it. The tuning shops that I have found, One guy offers timing advancement - one doesn't.

We only have 93 and 95 octane petrol here. I live at 1750 meters above sea level, with most of our riding in average temps of 20 Celsius plus. In Summer average of 30 deg Celsius.

So the question is in your opinion advance timing or not?
Do I keep the power commander and auto tune?
The other reason I like it is because I understand it can remove the stock O2sensor.
Your advice is always greatly appreciated.

Advancing timing I think you meant to say produces more hp.

Romans- I ask this question based on never having flashed any of my motorbikes and also having little knowledge on it either.

Go ahead Untamed ask away. I'm sure you have heard the only bad question was the one that was Never asked. I will answer to the best of my ability. Keep in mind others may different opinions. which is what makes the Forum world great as well as very frustrating.

So the question is in your opinion advance timing or not?

Ahhhh, tough one. Implies we readers know the timing Map that is being built for you. For me personally I luv, luv the timing, especially in the bottom. I also hate the timing, Especially in the top. so much rides on the quality of the fuel being used.

One only needs to study Lee Pritchard runs before and after PCV & Flash to see the gains. Feelings were the 500RPM being flashed in over Rev was a big contributor. Not necessarily the addition of timing.

If our bikes had Knock sensors we could play a little harder here, but they don't. So Play safe.

Do I keep the power commander and auto tune?

Up to you really. Let me put it this way. The Gen 1 ZX14 ran down the track Fastest burning fuel with a AFR # of 13.1 to 13.3 The Gen 2 Runs down the track fastest with a AFR # of 13.8 to 14 Many bike owners believe their bike is tuned perfect already, so who are to tell them different ? Fact is they don't know. Without a AFR gauge on board the science is lost.

99% of riders do Not know their AFR. In your case you have the on board tools to tweak whatever fuel table is given to you. Accepting blindly that One Map fits all set ups is impossible. Yet, many still have the want to believe in the Magic Pill. So be it.

If you're a Novice rider and don't care I would say dump it and assume all is good. If your OCD like me perfect is perfect and except Nothing Else.

Do you know what I mean ? If your Dyno sheet or data log runs don't show you the above #'s you have the ability to pull some fuel or Add. If the PCV taken off the bike you have no way to Adjust.

Your advice is always greatly appreciated.

Untamed I don't push my thinking onto anyone but I hope a gave you another way of looking at things so you yourself may make a informed decision. Brainwashing goes against the science eventually fails. Will never be my way. Watch Data logger AFR table shown in video below. Then ask the question is this the AFR # running currently in your bike. If answer is no than adjust.

That's what I meant. Pushing, pulling, advancing, less degrees past TDC, retarding, more degrees past TDC. It gets confusing. Better get my terminology down if I'm going to use it.

10° BTDC ~ Spark occurs. Call this degree before top is it takes time for the gas to burn.
0° TDC ~ Peak kinetic. This [heat] helps speed the gas burning, plus this is where detonation occurs.
10° ATDC ~ Complete burn. At [10°] idle, the rpm is slow and the gas [should at this time] burns completely as this becomes the power stroke.

The faster the rpm, the more advance is needed. This is so the burn speed happens [say for example] 30+ degrees BTDC. We still see this as a before and after burning event so the power [burning] continues after TDC. If we use your terminology, we could pull-more-advance, so the power-pushing occurs; we find the best time in degrees the engine [makes the most power] is move the advance curve so the burn speed makes peak power.

Make sense now?

Romans

Ahhhh, tough one. Implies we readers know the timing Map that is being built for you. For me personally I luv, luv the timing, especially in the bottom. I also hate the timing, Especially in the top. so much rides on the quality of the fuel being used.
One only needs to study Lee Pritchard runs before and after PCV & Flash to see the gains. Feelings were the 500RPM being flashed in over Rev was a big contributor. Not necessarily the addition of timing.
If our bikes had Knock sensors we could play a little harder here, but they don't. So Play safe.

The tuner said along the same lines, rather play safe and work in the AFR tables to fine tune it. So will flash and leave PCV and auto tune in place.
I still have the last map you sent me. Whilst I hear you say that one map does not fit all, my best dyno results were still on that map. After flashing would you recommend to still run that map and adjust trims on that map, or do you have another "magic pill"
Cheers

Romans, I’m getting ready to flash my stock ’14 ZX14R (Brocks CT Dual & PCV) using the Woolich system. I will be using Woolich baseline ignition map as the starting point. My fueling will be via the Brocks Street map / PCV.
Question:
I don’t know if you ever looked at the Woolich base ignition map (here is a picture just in case), but what is your opinion from the performance and engine safety? US 93 Octane is available here, but I would like to have the option to run 89 Octane.
Thanks.

* Last updated by: roadczar on 5/6/2015 @ 3:10 PM *

I still have the last map you sent me. Whilst I hear you say that one map does not fit all, my best dyno results were still on that map.

What were your results ? Can you post it ? Looking to see conditions and a close up of your AFR Line. Here lies the key to you back half mile per hour gains. Dyno sheets HP #'s mean nothing by themselves. At 1750 meters above sea level I would think the Map I sent would need some work. Maybe just the one you were using needed more work ?

So will flash and leave PCV and autotune in place.

Learning to use Auto Tune properly will be your next hurdle. In short moving the throttle back and forth with rapid movements bagging through the gears can make one hell of a mess. Always come back to your AFR Line or you will go slower.

After flashing would you recommend to still run that map and adjust trims on that map,

Yes, if the map I sent you made "Your" Best Horsepower it's perfect place to start. Tweek the map make it your own.

I don’t know if you ever looked at the Woolich base ignition map

No I hadn't until now. As for that ignition map that top end Looks Very Very familiar. It's a Small world and getting smaller by the look of it. Woolich Base Map ehhhh

but what is your opinion from the performance and engine safety?

"Is it safe" comes back to your fuel but Answer I will give is yes. My Answer is based on how many Bikes I know run that map for their top End. Also know some that run it on 87 octane. Not that it's a Good idea but it is happening ???

After seeing your print screen I went through every page of that Flash. Just the ignition map we are talking about here, You are not installing the entire Flash, correct ?

Road Czar Welcome Aboard. Your very first post could be a Hot One lol

Romans, I’m getting ready to flash my stock ’14 ZX14R (Brocks CT Dual & PCV) using the Woolich system.

Sweet, Lets see some pics

Romans,
I’m new to the board and ZX14s. Not new to bikes by any means, owned over 50 over my lifetime. Only a couple of Kawasakis. Have many years of both drag and road course experience. Not sure if our paths crossed in the past, I spent years at Union Grove drag strip (both cars and bikes). Also, frequented, all Chicagoland road tracks (Road America, Putnam Park, Blackhawk, Gingerman, Grattan, Autobahn).
I worked on bikes my whole life, but this is the first ECU flashing exercise. My background is technology/computers which also helps.
My plan is to completely derestrict and add reasonable power without affecting street rideability or reliability.
Here is the proposed approach based on my research on various forums:
1 - Fuel maps – no changes. I am using Brock’s PCV street map. (Personal choice)
2 - Ignition maps – copy Woolich Racing base full-power map to both the full power and safety maps of the stock bin. I’m hoping it will work well with US 91-93 octane. Another assumption - replacing safety map will eliminate any liability restrictions.
3 - STP Opening - copy Woolich Racing base full-power map to both the full power and safety maps of the stock bin. Assumption - replacing safety map will eliminate any liability restrictions.
4 - Remove speed limiter
5 - Retain traction control setting
Don’t have any ZX14R pictures on me at the moment (will post some when I get home). Here are some of my past bikes. Some others are on my old website that needs major updates… roadczar.com.
Thanks!

I worked on bikes my whole life, but this is the first ECU flashing exercise. My background is technology/computers which also helps.

Roadczar,Sounds like you have a very Good grasp on what you are trying to achieve. Based on your response above I assume you have also looked at that Base Flash and noticed what's wrong with it.

Here is the proposed approach based on my research on various forums:
1 - Fuel maps – no changes. I am using Brock’s PCV street map. (Personal choice)
2 - Ignition maps – copy Woolich Racing base full-power map to both the full power and safety maps of the stock bin. I’m hoping it will work well with US 91-93 octane. Another assumption - replacing safety map will eliminate any liability restrictions.
3 - STP Opening - copy Woolich Racing base full-power map to both the full power and safety maps of the stock bin. Assumption - replacing safety map will eliminate any liability restrictions.
4 - Remove speed limiter
5 - Retain traction control setting

Roadczar,Sounds like you have a very Good grasp on what you are trying to achieve. Based on your response above I assume you have also looked at that Base Flash and noticed what's wrong with it.

Funny you say this. I’m somewhat confused by the base flash and posted some questions on Woolich forums.
Fuel maps are changed, but description says they are not.
All low and full power maps are modified, but differences are not explained. Not sure what is their intent of low vs full power mode modifications.
Safety Mode ignition map does not match the full or low power map (not sure this is intentional.)
The second gear STP map looks odd.
What did I miss?

* Last updated by: roadczar on 5/7/2015 @ 10:50 AM *

Funny you say this. I’m somewhat confused by the base flash and posted some questions on Woolich forums.
Fuel maps are changed, but description says they are not.
All low and full power maps are modified, but differences are not explained. Not sure what is their intent of low vs full power mode modifications.
Safety Mode ignition map does not match the full or low power map (not sure this is intentional.)
The second gear STP map looks odd.
What did I miss?

I too am confused. Lots to say here but maybe it's better I stay out of it. Great Convo over a Beer maybe lol

I spent years at Union Grove drag strip (both cars and bikes). Also, frequented, all Chicagoland road tracks (Road America, Putnam Park, Blackhawk, Gingerman, Grattan, Autobahn).

i met a guy with a b/o busa with Akra exhaust back in 2009 at Brookfield Culver's Two Wheel Tuesday. Blond haired dude. Was it you? PM me, we should ride sometime.

* Last updated by: Rook on 5/7/2015 @ 11:46 AM *

i met a guy with a b/o busa with Akra exhaust back in 2009 at Brookfield Culver's Two Wheel Tuesday. Blond haired dude. Was it you? PM me, we should ride sometime

Not I, My last blast on the strip was in early 90's on a FZR1000. Ride sounds good.I often ride Kettle Moraine area and have lunch at the General store by H and 12.

I too am confused. Lots to say here but maybe it's better I stay out of it. Great Convo over a Beer maybe lol

Fair enough. If you could tell me this. What combination of Ignition and STP maps would be best from their selection? Full or low power?
Thanks again.

Ride sounds good.I often ride Kettle Moraine area and have lunch at the General store by H and 12.

I ride in the Kettle Morrain on hwy 67 from Dousman to Eagle often. I'l send you a PM.

Sounds good Rook!

Here is my 14r:

My Gen1 14 probably won't be roadworthy by next week so I'll most likely take the busa. Look familiar?