yannih, you switched your comparison example from apples to oranges. In your original statement which I referenced...
yannih: If teachers are to carry loaded firearms in the classroom can you 100% rule out any accidental injury or deaths?
Everytime?
....you are asking for a 100% guarantee of a result, an outcome.
But in your example you are referencing a decision, commitment to 100% participate, regardless of the outcome, results....
yannih: If we lose our lives riding we knew what was involved and it's always 100% our call to ride or not.
.....despite your 100% commitment to ride (decision), you nor anyone else can 100% guarantee (everytime) what the results and outcome of riding will be, yet you are willing to run the risk. My point is, regardless of your commitment to do something and preparation for that something, you can not 100% guarantee the outcome, even for something we all do, like go to sleep. Yet there are those who will not wake up.
yannih:As a basic example what if I all of a sudden forced a rule on you that stated you can only ride your motorcycle if you carry a fire extinguisher with you at all times and you must stop at every fire outbreak you see and assist in putting out that fire regardless of the situation, danger presented or your experience? I, an outsider have now made a decision and put a limitation on what you love and have made it less desirable and more dangerous.
Do I have the right to tell you, someone who loves riding motorbikes that you should also be a firefighter, trained or not?
I never said to force a rule on any one. In fact I have made it very clear there are some teachers who would not pass the selection process, nor have I stated every teacher must carry a gun. But if you did force this motorcycle rule, it would be my decision to ride, not yours. And, actually I probably would ride and I would assist my best to extinguish fires.
yannih: Why? They are teachers for god sake! Some will have it in them to do that and some will not. If they wanted to carry guns or protect the community they would have joined the police force or army. Again, they are just teachers. Get guards/security/personnel that are specifically trained for that purpose. Add security to schools but let teachers teach...
Again, I have never said they must all carry guns. But, before they are teachers, they are adults. For those teachers who are prepared (and do, and have) to take the responsibility to stand and do the best they can to protect their students regardless of carrying a gun, I salute them. They realize there may come a day in the classroom, as on the street, they may face adversity in the form of a lethal threat and have made a commitment to address the threat by best means possible. That may mean a withdraw, it may mean a counter-attack, it may mean a barricade. Their mindset to fulfill their adult responsibility does not interfere with their ability to teach, rather it compliments it.
yannih:Jeez Eagle. What if you lived in a street you loved all your life and I came up to you and suddenly said "Whether you like it or not from today you are now solely responsible to protect everyone in this street. It's now part of the condition of you living here. Carry a firearm or don't, but it's up to you to ensure the streets safety. I don't really care if it's in your makeup to be a protector or not. If you don't like it you are not really welcome here and should consider leaving and living somewhere else?"
Does that all sound fair and reasonable to you?
You are not comparing apples and oranges. Students are for the most part forced to attend school. They are under the supervision and leadership of the school administrators, staffing, and assigned teachers. They are of the age we consider they need protecting from aggressive adults. For the most part, the assigned teacher has taken the role of the students parents to guide and protect while in their care.
In my neighborhood there are families, parents and their children. As a parent I am responsible for my children and they are responsible for theirs. If however, they need/want my help, even to the point of lethal force, and the authorities are not available, I will do my best. If a condition of them living here was that they live under my roof and by my rules, then yes, I would be responsible for them all, but that is not the condition, neither is it with any other free neighborhood.
yannih:Very admirable Eagle. And I definitely am not doubting or challenging that you would act as required.
But firstly have you been in a situation like we are discussing here to find out what you are really made of because we learn a lot about ourselves when challenged under severe pressure? We would all like to think we would be the hero of the day if the time came, but there is every chance we end up shaking under a table and trying to protect our own skins.
And secondly you are making a huge assumption with this statement because you are assuming everyone is like you which they are not. You have advised that you would definitely stand up to be counted and save lives and the day if the time came. But not everyone has that in them and they openly and honestly admit that potential short coming up front.
By the way, history has shown many times that the big talking heroes are no where to be found when needed and the self professed doubters of their own abilities step up and somehow get the job done.
Very good point you made which I have made previously, we don't know until we know. I don't think my resume is that important to the discussion, but as your question seems to point towards me, I'm a former NCO infantry combat veteran. They have shot at me and missed, I have shot at them and hit. I have been in law enforcement. I have graduated over 2,000 students from the Arizona Concealed Weapon Permit Gun Safety Course. I have trained many more than that including law enforcement, military, personal protection and citizen civilians in basic firearm safety up through SWAT/SPL OPS level tactical lethal force, which is only 20% guns and 80% mind conditioning and wisdom. I have seen and experienced the dark side of crime and war, as well as, the light side, first hand. Since my late teens I have made a commitment to stand in the face of a threat. I would never forecast how well I will do when the moment of lethal adversity knocks on my door, but I can say I will do my best to protect myself and others at the time, as I have done in the past. I'm not anyone special, many have taken a stand to fight when under attack (including teachers!), it's just the notion that teachers don not have a responsibility for their students while in their care that disturbs me, both from parents and from some teachers.
As a teacher/instructor I think I have a pretty good idea of what it takes to provide others, who need it, to develop the mindset to prevail under stressful attack. Some don't need it, others will never get it, the rest (majority) can develop it, if they want to. None of us are perfect, and we cannot 100% guarantee an outcome. What we can do is prepare and and when challenged, try by doing the best we can. The notion that teachers are "just teacher" massively undercuts their value and insults the profession.
* Last updated by: EagleSix on 3/16/2018 @ 10:59 AM *
Best Regards.......George
12' ZX14R (aka 'Mad Max')
06' ZX14 (aka 'Blue Max')