I still like just pushing the starter button and going. Guess I will buy a PC3 and get a mapp from Tuner McJeff -- seriously.

Thanks For ALL THE SUPPORT! JEFFO

Jeff glad your back. I know BG asked you to return and he felt pretty bad that some of the boys gave you a hard time. How about you give him a call and ask him to do the same. LOL

Well if nothing else the Hubster put up some of the best pictures!

Thumbs up to Hubster!

e mailed Jeffo late Saturday afternoon with enquiry, he phoned me Saturday night 10:00 ish p.m. my time (!!!), I missed him, I called him back Sunday afternoon, had to pry myself off the phone after 40 minutes or so, the guy makes sense and is certainly enthused. At a measly $50 god knows how he is making any money at this when you take his time into account.

paid by PayPal Sunday afternoon, had map for 3,300 ft elevation, my temperature range, by Sunday evening. Opened up the Jeffo map, compared it to my dyno printouts of stock bike and stock AFR (way rich), and noted that the new Jeffo map personalized for my location and riding conditions LEANS the mixture through most of the rev range, plus adds fuel at closed throttle hopefully to reduce decel popping. Also compared Jeffo's map to my fuelmoto map, which fuelmoto map RICHENS the already overly rich mixtures, and makes the bike run soft compared to even the stock zero mapping, which is why I was looking at this mapping issue as the fuelmoto map doesn't do it for me.

I can't load and test ride for a couple of days, and will very carefully monitor engine temps with an IR temp sensor as well as stock bar guage, but the Jeffo map makes perfect sense to me as a starting point for muy location, temps, and elevation, and knowing from actual prior dyno runs the bike runs rich from stock through most of the range. Going leaner makes perfect sense, as long as it doesn't go too lean. Rather than datalogging with the PC autotuner, I will be hooking up my Innovate LM2 ( http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php ) to the Bosch wideband sensor, duct tape the meter to the top of the tank, and observe actual AFR ratios as I ride to make sure it doesn't go dangerously lean. The Innovate LM 2 is considerably more accurate than anything DynoJet offers for sale.

I'll report back in a few days as to whatever the facts actually turn out to be.

Also, I am using a PC Five on my 2008 ZX 14, all Jeffo's e mailed instructions are for the PC 3, but his instructions over the phone were perfectly clear as the different setup required for the PC V. My initial suggestion is that the e mailed instructions need to be updated for the PC V as well, but I am not expecting any issues in the PC V setup, and if I have an issue, I'll call Jeffo and have him walk me through the setup as he has offered to do.

Paul

F.A.I.C.S has a refund policy, ha ha thats a joke, why did I not qualify? What if he screwed up your plugs and you don't want to let him touch it again? I guess your whole motor has to blow up to get a refund offer.

Blue07 you seem to be the spokes model for FAICS, please enlighten us. Has anyone ever had money back offered to them?

Monster, you and I have a testimonial for Jeffo but I don't think he wants to hear it.

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 10/1/2009 @ 8:45 AM *

Hub, I already said I would give Jeffo another shot if he would actually develop a map for my bike that worked. I mean actually ride the bike and map it not just sit at a computer desk and juggle hypothetical numbers. His concept of "Customer Service" is to talk on the phone. That doesn't acccomplish any thing except to run up your phone bill. Jeffo.... buy, beg, borrow or steal a bike like mine and actually do your homework this time. You say you want to make it right for Monster and me, then make it right! Send me a map that is superior to the one I'm running now (FuelMoto) and I will delete every one of my posts....you have my word on it. Ball's in your court buddy!

Kruz

* Last updated by: Kruz on 10/1/2009 @ 9:58 AM *

well, here in Calgary it was -2 C last night, which is a hard frost and around about 28 ish F.

I have the day off today, and just finished loading up Jeffo's map on my PC 5. I also enabled the accelerator pump feature and set it to Jeffo's recomendations. The software for the PC 5 is different than the PC 3, and Jeffo's instructions are for the PC 3, so I called Jeffo for instructions on how to resolve the differences, quick phone explanation and I was set to than configure both the accelerator pump and the TPS (Throttle Position Sensor).

setting accelerator pump is easy, and without breaching copyright, it is now set to come into effect at better than half throttle, less than 3/4 throttle, and at the % fuel specified in jeffo's instructions.

the TPS was an eyeopener. On the PC 5 the reading is in volts, and the way the TPS was set when I first checked it was WAY off the mark. The TPS tells the map where the throttle is, closed has a particular voltage, wide open has a particular higher voltage, everywhere in between is determined from the benchmarks of the full closed and full opened voltages. So, previously, running my fuelmoto map, the TPS was clearly giving the map incorrect information concerning the throttle position, not allowing the map to do its job properly. I will have to try the fuelmoto map again now that the TPS is set correctly, as I sure wasn't happy with the fuelmoto map, but it may not have been the map, might have been the incorrect TPS settings.

Anyways, the TPS setup is diffent on the PC V than on the PC 3, but dead easy once I was pointed in the correct direction with a quick phone call.

so, repeating my earlier comment, jeffo's written instructions need to be updated for the PC 5, if only to relieve himself of extra phone calls, but he doesn't seem to mind the extra calls, so it works out so far.

bike is ready for a test ride, I am just waiting for the sun to warm things up a bit for a mid afternoon ride when the temps may hopefully make it all the way up to 10 C, maybe high 40's F, we are supposed to see our first bit of snow in the next few days, sucks living this far north compared to most of you, I just got back from California a few days ago, and I am having difficulty adjusting to western Canadian fall weather........

more after the test riding...

Paul

Sorry Hub,

Once bitten twice shy, there is no way in hell I will run Jeffs map in my bike again. Your a nice guy and thats a nice offer but Jeff already called me a FOOL and I really would be one if I used his map again. Thanks anyways!!

youtube! hub utu crazy. 2much once aks girly wat i get for 10 dolla she say da hole thang u so crazy much more dan 10 mebbe times 5

well, as posted earlier today, 2008 ZX 14 SE, jeffo map loaded to my PC 5, TPS set very carefully according to jeffo's phone instructions, and accelarator pump enabled and configured according to jeffo's phone instructions. Note that Jeffo's written instructions need to be updated to take the PC 5 differences into account. Autotuner disabled, and my Innovate LM2 datalogger hooked up to the wide band Bosch sensor.

coolish here, when I went for my roughly 100 mile test ride, it had just reached about 50 F in the height of the afternoon, was about 42 F by the time I got back.

temp guage on the bike didn't get above two bars, even though the jeffo map is considerably leaner through a large part of the map, although outside ambient temps lowish as described. I am at about 3,300 feet, which was taken into account in my map.

my conclusion:

the bike is running better than it ever has.

smooth linear power with a huge aditional eyeball flattening hit starting at about 5,000 rpm and up from about 2/3's throttle. Bike is really smooth, blistering fast, and the decel popping is almost, not quite, gone, greatly reduced. I will be calling jeffo for suggestions to fine tune map to try and dial out the last bit of popping.

my Innovate LM2 datalogger tells me the mixtures are in the ballpark throughout the range, not too lean, and the jeffo map has cured most, but not all of the overly rich patches. Some more fine tuning will be in order.

best $50 I have ever spent on a motorcycle. This map, together with careful setup of the TPS and the accelerator pump, is a huge improvement. Please note that following jeffo's instructions led me to discover that my bikes TPS was not set anywhere near correctly, so now the TPS is set correctly I am going to retry the fuelmoto map to give it a fair go as well but fuelmoto never said anything to me about setting up the TPS and accelerator pump.... Also, I suspect the map as I asked jeffo to set it up for me will likely need to be richened for much warmer weather, but that is easy to do.

My best suggestion for anyone trying modified mapping is to make absolutely sure your TPS is set up correctly, mine was way out from the factory and dealer prep.

my opinion based on my experience so far is that jeffo seems to really know what he is doing. My bike will also be going to the dyno in a bit, and I am going to run a variety of scenarios and maps, so I can get some hard numbers to compare, but for $50 I am absolutely thrilled based on my own experience so far!!

Paul

Awsesome Laverda-just great!Got the same story here.One thing though-Do you have all your armour on?Yer gonna need it!Remember-your bike's performance gains are "all in your imagination,because you don't tune yer own bike,therefore-you can't possibly experience what your reporting as the truth"-Ride On Brother!!!!! I'm LOVIN mine!!!!!(feels like 16/43 gearing WITHOUT the vibe{only BETTER,smooth as glass all the way through the powerband}-hummmm....wonder what she'll run like NOW with 16/43?BTW-my bike IS running MUCH cooler now as well!!!!Wohooo!I might add-dangerously fast-NOT recommended for the faint of heart. ........................My....it's quiet out there

* Last updated by: blue07 on 10/1/2009 @ 11:16 PM *

Who's IVAN? .....well,anyway.sing it with me,will ya HUB..."Oh map maker map maker make me a map"............. Very Good!!!(sure ya didn't miss yer calling there?) Now I know why it's so quiet-somebody turned on the LIGHTS!!!

* Last updated by: blue07 on 10/1/2009 @ 11:55 PM *

Proves nothing Laverda, my bike ran like crap on Jeffo's map and Monster was left stranded. Let's see here, backfiring, 3 foot flames, fouled plugs, flat spots, overheating, dead bike in the road .... Looks like this time Jeffo copied the right map off the DynoJet site for you. Like I said before even a stopped clock get's it right twice a day. Notice on my call out Jeffo has yet to respond? Wonder why that is? Is it it because he knows he can't deliver? What did I ask him to do? Real simple, get a bike equipped like mine as Brock and every other "real tuner" on the face of the planet does and actually tune the bike. That's it, tune the freakin bike that's all I asked for. But no.... he wants me to call him so we can talk some more and tune by Braille...blind leadin the blind!! This guy is a sham artist and you all have been duped...I can send you free maps all day long that will work well on your bike right off the DynoJet website. What a freakin joke!

Kruz

Laverda-you MUST stop this HERESY-the world is FLAT!!!!!

the world is FLAT!!!!!

Now you finally said something that makes sense!

Kruz

It aint dumb luck that his maps are working.Wouldn't surprise me at all if he had a degree in physics or somethin else along those lines-seriously.The complexities of mapping a modern bike are light years ahead of carbs and such.Ya gotta know what's doing what when,and how it's gonna change or act if ya do "this"-and at what temperature its gonna do "that",and at what elevation it gonna do "this" when it does "that"."How much of this can I add here at this particular time to produce this action here,at this much throttle,and if I take away here,I'm gonna lose this part that I want in there"I mean,geez-the guy in my opinion pretty much has the handle on what he needs to do to get to where he wants to be-no easy,magic wand at all.Probably LOTS of nights spent studying and experimenting with lots of different situations-I give the guy credit for bein able to do what he's doin.That's all.If my map wasn't performing like I wanted-and he wanted me to have it adjusted, or I wanted it adjusted-even if it ran terrible-I wouldn't hesitate at all-it's MY bike, and MY map.

* Last updated by: blue07 on 10/2/2009 @ 9:18 AM *

Ya know,this whole thing could've been resolved in a good manner IF,when the maps weren't working-a call was made-in spite of the disappointment,the problem was layed out to the mapmaker-and then another try was made to see if it was gonna be okay,or needed further refinement.Getting the correct settings for an 08,09 with the MODS done at Kawasaki was probably a little new to him-but he's smart enough I think to get it dialed in,even if it took a few tries(and phone calls)In Monster's case-yes,the situation was more discouraging-but he COULD have told the guy-"hey,your map didn't work,fouled my expensive plugs-and pretty much ruined my plans.I'll work with ya on this again-IF-you tell me that if anything goes like it did-the plugs and all-you will replace the plugs-and we'll call it good.As well as giving me a satisfactory map that we're BOTH happy with.I think that would have worked for all of you guys.Actually,I'm thinkin he would probably still be willing to work with you guys IF you'd lay aside your attitudes,and maybe a "mild" apology for what was said?Nobody wants this kind of thing hanging around in the background,do they?

Blue, I understand you trying to mend fences here, that's a noble gesture and I'm sure this will all settle out sometime in the future. In the meantime we're extracting our "pound of flesh" at $50 a serving and the bloodletting will go on until it's run it's course. Jeffo got his $100 now we gettin ours!

I disagree with your point about Jeff being some kind of rocket scientist. I highly doubt it. He admitted he starts with a zero map and then "customizes" it from there, no advanced degree required here. Try it yourself. Download a zero map and then start changing the cells. Now go load it onto your PCIII and go ride your bike. You'll be amazed at how much tinkering you can do and the bike will still run OK. (don't ride too far as you may foul a plug or have 3 foot flames comin out the arse end.....irony intentional!)

In this case customizing means guess work, educated guess work possibly but still guess work. The problem is none of this is verifiable by phone. In the case of both Monster and me, we lost faith in the process and our belief in Jeff's ability to make it right.

What I thought I was getting and what Jeffo advertises on his site are maps developed for specific motorcycles. He also says if he doesn't have the particular map he will custom build one.

He doesn't tell you how he is going to custom build one but anyone who's been in this business knows reputable tuners like Brock, buy or borrow a motorcycle to tune and that is what we expect.

Jeffo has a different system that involves you telling him over the phone that your bike runs like crap and then he tries to diagnose it and change some of the cell numbers all based on a zero map "borrowed" off of DJs website.

When my first map, ran hot, backfired on decel and blew fuel fumes at idle I already knew I was done. I could tell the map effort was halfbaked, not the work of a real tuner. Jeffo, did not have the map for my bike. He produced one on his laptop using the zero map after I sent him the fifty bucks. He then e-mailed this assmap to me to experiment with. I never intended to call Jeffo back, he called me when I posted my findings over here on this site. He sent me another map but it was so limp I really didn't want to put it in my bike. I knew this was BS and leading nowhere. I installed the second map hoping it might be better but it ran worse..I was done.

Interestingly Jeffo had me fill out a questionaire online that detailed modifications, altitude, ambient temperature range etc. This is all smoke and mirrors. Jeffo said he had a map for my bike with the intake flapper mod but then didn't know what it was. Big clue right there this guy was a BS artist. After the first map fizzled, he called and said the problem was the map was designed for high altitude in Scottsdale AZ. Why the hell did I fill out the information sheet if he's not even going to read it?? At this point I'm thinking this guy just screwed me out of $50. What a Joke!

Kruz

I hear ya-I can't agree with everything you said-but I can understand how ya feel.You're right-I am trying to mend fences-just bums me to see the two of ya goin about it this way.Your feelings about the whole deal are justified-that's a given.I won't clown around any more with ya-it really was intended to be is a spirit of goodwill.I've carried a lot of anger around in the past-lots of revenge type stuff.It's a dead end.But,as you said-"it's gotta take it's course".I learned one thing-I can start my day OVER AGAIN anytime I choose-regardless of what happened yesterday.Or 5 minutes past.Really sorry your experience turned out so disappointing-but if it gets some things clearer in our lives-then it's really done us a favor!Okay-yeah-enough of that-Have a GREAT day Kruz.

Hi Kruz

well, if I understood Jeffo correctly, what I am now running on my 08 and PC V for a map is very similar to what was provided for Monster's bike, apparently Monster lives somewhere near a similar base altitude to me.

as I mentoned previously, I do a lot of carb rebuilds and custom tuning of older Italian bikes, mainly Laverda's, Moto Guzzi's, and bevel Ducati's. When someone calls me or comes to my place alleging carb problems, the carbs are usually the last thing I check. I first check with a piston stop and degree wheel that the actual Top Dead Center mark stamped on the engine case by the factory is actually accurate. With old Italian bikes the mark is more likely to be inaccurate than accurate. Then I set the ignition timing perfectly from a TDC mark that I have determined for myself is accurate, or marked myself. Then I check valve clearances, and correct as necessary. Then I make sure their are no intake leaks, or exhaust header pipe leaks. Then I make sure the charging systems are working (as well as old Italian charging systems can work, anyway) and that the battery has a full charge. Probably 50 per cent of the time, I solve the "carb" problems without ever touching the carbs........

all any fuel injection map for a Power Commander is constitutes percentage changes to Kawasaki's base map for the fuel injectors, which for an 08 is ridiculously rich all over. The sucker sprays too much fuel for optimum performance as it comes from the factory. Much safer for the factory, more fuel, richer mixtures, engines run cooler, if some bozo puts on an open aftermarekt exhaust without adjusting the fuel mixture to suit, the base stock fuel mixture is still rich enough that the bike doesn't go so lean that engine damage occurs.

for any aftermarket map or even Kawasaki's base map to work effectively, the single most basic important thing is for the Thottle Position Sensor to accurately "tell" the map where the throttle is, as the map percentage fuel changes are determined for wherever the throttle position is. In the goold old days of slide carbs running off a throttle cable, you turned the throttle, the cable pulled the slide, and the carb "knew" where the slide was because of the change in its position in the carb boiore. Now, with these fuel injection systems, the injection needs a way of knowing how far the throttle is opened or closed, which is accomplished by the Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) Unfortunately the TPS is adjustable...... and the information it provides to teh fuel injections is only as accurate as the setup of the TPS. If the TPS is telling the map that the throttle is only 1/3 open, when it is actually wide open, the map will apply the settings for 1/3 throttle to what is actually wide open throttle, and the bike will run like crap as the fuel injection is applying inaccurate information. That was the case with my bike, right from the factory and the possibly shoddy dealer prep. On an 08 the TPS reads in volts to several decimal places, and on my bike when I first checked it, the TPS was telling the map that the throttle was 1/3 open when it was actually wide open, so the upper 2/3's of the map wasn't even being referenced. Ridiculous, shoddy setup by Kawasaki or by the dealer when doing dealer prep. Nothing whatsoever to do with the custom maps provided to me by DynoJet, fuelmoto, or jeffo, other than none of the maps could do their intended job as they were being fed inaccurate throttle position information from the TPS.

so, before blaming any map, or making any judgement about how effective or ineffective it may be, I would want to know that all the underlying factors, igniton timing, valve clearances, and most importantly, the Throttle Position Sensor, are set accurately. If the TPS setting is off, nothing is going to work correctly, it is that simple.

now that my bikes TPS is set correctly, the bike runs astonishingly well, so much better than when I picked it up brand new from the dealer. Is the improvement from the TPS being correctly set, or from jeffo's map, or is it both? I don't know, but I suspect it is both. jeffo's map with its percentage change settings mainly leaning out the stock settings, make sense to me based on my real time monitoring of the stock air/fuel ratio with an Innovate LM 2 datalogger. The Innovate LM 2 is considerably more accurate than the Power Commander and Autotuner, but both the autotuner and the LM 2 agree that on my bike the thing was stinking rich through most of the rev range. jeffo's map corrects that for the most part.

so, my suggestion for you, Monster, and anyone else, to be sure your bike is running as well as it can is to methodically go through the steps of making sure the base settings, amd most particularly the TPS settings, are absolutely correct on your bike. If you are using a PC V and you were trying to follow jeffo's written instructions, the unfortunate thing is that those written instructions are for a PC 3, and the PC 5 TPS setup is compeletely different. Easy, but different, and the TPS MUST be set up correctly for the bike to run right with any map. If you don't want to contact jeffo, I'll be happy to walk you though the TPS setup, it is not proprietary information, and it is dead simple once you know what needs to be done.

fouling plugs is typically an overly rich condition. jeffo's map that I have LEANS the fuel settings for a good part of the range, so I would suspect the TPS setting on the particular bike that runs so rich as to foul plugs may very well not be set correctly, resulting in the bike's fuel injection receiving incorrect information about the throttle position. The jeffo map that I have is extremely unlikely to be able to foul plugs as long as it is running from an accurately set up TPS, as the bike is running leaner for the most part, not richer.

Anyways, costs nothing for each of you and Monster and anyone else to check and make sure your TPS sensors are set correctly, would take only a couple of minutes, max, and would possibly assist in making your bike run considerably better no matter which map you may or may not chooose to run.

Paul

Laverda, glad you got a good map, I don't think Jeffo is a very good guy but I would not wish a bad map on anyone. I also was on the phone with Jeff during setup to make sure it was right.

My question is why do you have same map as me if I have full system and you have slip ons. Also how does he know how to map(for a yosh slip on) if this is only his second pcV map. I thought he made a map for you specific mods but I guess not, 1 map for slip ons no matter what brand and one for full sys no matter what brand, that may sound ok but pipes flow differently, hence all the different maps on the dj site depending on what pipe you have.

Now if he says that is a map just for your yosh, how the hell does he know, did he borrow a 14 with your exact mods and test on it, bet you a set of plugs he did not.

I think Kruz is right, he is just taking a dj map and adding numbers to it, I could do the same thing but at least I would test it on my own bike before selling it to someone and screwing them over.

P.S. you should have seen my AzzMap post, I would have sold you my Jeffo map for 25 bucks!! Cut throat prices, no refunds, sorry.

Hi Monster

went and read your AzzMap thread, had me laughing (and in a good way....)

so, your TPS is set correctly then? On my bike that turned out to be closed throttle voltage of roughly 0.698, fully open throttle volts of roughly 3.890. The factory settings for my TPS were nowhere near correct.

Paul

Appreciate the input Paul. My TPS was set dead on, I talked about this in an earlier posting: https://zx14ninjaforum.com/messages.cfm?threadid=DCAF0D1D-1372-66AE-3B1CBB8376000B6E

I have a brand new motorcycle (CBR 1000RR) that was running perfectly before installing Jeffo's map. It also ran perfectly after removing Jeffo's map and reinstalling the original FuelMoto map. I then installed Jeffo's second map, set everything back up again and it ran poorly again. At this point I re-installed the FuelMoto map for good and I'm very happy with the results. It is fairly easy to reach a conclusion here. I cannot speak for Monster but he sounds like a bright kid and following the TPS setup sheet is fairly simple. Setting up the throttle points and Accelerator Pump utility on my ZX-14 did give a noticeable improvement in throttle response even though the TPS was off by only 2%, this is with a map by Ivan. How much of this was attributable to the TPS and how much to the accelerator pump I don't know for sure.

If your TPS was that far off from the factory then it is impossible to tell how much of the "improvement" comes from the new map as opposed to getting the TPS right. You can load the zero map off DynoJets website which will recreate the original ECU factory mapping into your PC5, reset the TPS and try it again. You might be surprised to find how good it runs now.

Jeff's methodolgy is what is in question here. I asked him point blank if he had developed the map he was sending me, on a 2007 CBR 1000RR with Yoshimura RS-5 Full System with intake flapper modification.

He would not answer but instead evaded the question and actually had to ask me what an intake flapper mod was: http://www.rogueracing.org/flap.htm Anyone who has any knowledge of tuning CBRs knows this is one of the simplest and most effective mods that can be done to improve low end response on these bikes.

At that point my inner voice was telling me to hang up but there's something that lives in all of us that still wants to believe in the Easter Bunny.

Kruz