Shorter bolts would be the same effect as washering.Maybe just carefully hack saw off a couple of threads there and smooth off the bolt cut...I think that'd be okay?More work than washering...but...

or you could make a bolt by dropping a regular screw through an aluminum tube cut to the right length. Or for all the work that would be, I'd just buy new bolts and dremel the tip down.

I don't think anyone's confirmed that the thing is seeping while she's runnin.

I really didn't notice any just running the bike on the stand after torquing the bolts but i never got the oil pressure up, of course. I did notice the leak right after my first ride. I checked right away because there was oil running back over the muffler. that was just seepage from my filler cap which had loosened up. (be wary of using an after market filler cap. that oem plastic grips really well without damaging threads. my pretty anodized blue cap might get tossed in the can.)IDK if the gasket leak happened after the first run on the stand but I really doubt it. the leak is pretty severe now. the oil was all down the side and front. I still don't think it dripped on the floor but

I will check closely after I do the washers. Hope it doesn't leak at all. then i'll just forget about it.

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You know, the spec is 87 in lbs. I only went to 70. That may be why the leak is worse now than it was before I removed the cover. Maybe I should just try going the full 87 in lbs. It felt like the bolts were bottoming. There was definite resistance all at once. I didn't want to go too much tighter. It was not more than an eighth turn and the wrench clicked. Last thing I want to see the little coil springs turn up out of the threads when I take a bolt out. I think I did that on the towers of my little Yammi back when I was a kid. Pretty sure Dad just lock tighted them for me and called 'er good.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/26/2011 @ 10:45 AM *

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Personally,I would not go the 87 if the bolt feels like it's stopping.I'd just do the washer thing and snug em up nice.I mean...how much more of a 'crush' is gonna occur by taking it 17 more inch/lbs...if it's already bottomed...you're just asking for trouble IMO.If it was somewhere else on the motor...then,maybe.But having to remove a broken shank where it's at is gonna be a REAL drag...for anyone.No tellin what you might have to do to get an easy out in there...IF that would even work.You MIGHT be talkin....God Forbid...engine removal

I wouldn't try to think this thing to death Rook....I'd just washer it and call her good.

Just curious here...but how many times have you loosened up or had your valve cover off?If she's leaking WORSE than before....you 'might' be creating a gasket problem by taking the pressure off 'too many times'...IDK.I'd do the washer(s).

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/26/2011 @ 1:21 PM *

.if it's already bottomed...you're just asking for trouble IMO.

exactly what I was thinking. Plus I do not know how accurate the torque wrench is. Feels a little soft I think? There is a thread I started where someone posted a nice link to a vid which demos torque wrench testing. You just put the square drive in a vice and hang weights on the end of the handle then there is some mathematical formula.

Thing is----when I removed the two left bolts yesterday with a 1/4" drive ratchet, they WERE only snug. 70" lbs is not much.......just under 6 lbs hung off a 1 inch long lever. That would seem on the light side of snug if you ask me.

But having to remove a broken shank where it's at is gonna be a REAL drag...for anyone

Yes, or to strip threads in the aluminum block would be worse.

how many times have you loosened up or had your valve cover off?

Just off one time and then back on but I doubt I crushed it hard this time around. The bolts were not any tighter when I removed them. I'll be taking all the bolts out and redoing the tightening sequence with 1 washer under each. If it doesn't work, 2 washers. If that leaks, I have a new gasket sitting here. If it comes to that, I'll change the bolt gaskets too. That seems like the thing that would loose its crush the easiest. Without pressure from those bolt head gaskets, there is no pressure on the head cover or the cover gasket. The shoulder or the tip of the threads hits and you can't rely on the bolt to compress after that. That would be the job of the bolt gaskets.

When you had you cover gasket replaced, did you also have the guy change the bolt gaskets?

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/26/2011 @ 9:52 PM *

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I just added the washers. Put one on each valve cover bolt. OEM service manual calls for 9.8 newtonmeters torque value. I set the torque wrench to 9 newtonmeters for each bolt, then set it to 10 and re-torqed. I've been monitoring for seepage and after 1000 miles since completing the task, no more seepage...

I had the same problem on my 07 the left side was loose compared to the right side so i tightend the crap out of the left side and so far so good!

Below is a pic from "3000 psi and falling" (Bikeland) link HERE He went with one washer under each bolt & torque to specs. Removing/installing one at a time. All seems OK.

Sure looks like a few owners have torqued to spec even with the washer(s) in there. The only concern I would have is damaging the gaskets if the rubber gets crushed too much. The bottom out was what would prevent the gasket from getting crushed too much. Torquing to spec with the washers in isn't going to hurt the threads at all. If the bolt does still bottom with the washers in, all the better. Extra crush on the gasket and locked the bolt at the same time.

I noticed they put a lot of red Locktite on the aluminum crossbar bolts on the left (which has a few wires strapped to it). Wonder why all the Locktite?

Let's not confuse red locktight with the soft pink paste that the Kawi factory uses on some bolts. Two totally dif materials. The Kawi pink is designed to be stay soft, removable. Red locktight is permanent. If you use it, better use just a tiny spot if you ever want to get the bolt out again. I would give the blue nonpermanent locktight a try. It is good to 300 F which is prolly ok for the head. The common red locktight is not any more heat resistant than the blue. You can get the high temp red and that will take you to 450 F. Personally, I will use blue if I feel it is needed and check it often. Best to NOT use locktight inside the motor as it crumbles when the bolt is removed. Not gonna wear the engine at all but could cause some oil passage blockage if you are not careful to look for any chunks.

.If you removed the cover while she's just sitting there after a ride,I'm wondering how much oil is collecting at that one corner.I'm not gonna take er apart to find out...that's fer sure.

Sounds like you are concerned that there is a buildup of oil in the head after shut down. You were still gettting a little seep, eh? I cannot see how there would be any oil pressure after shutdown. Just pools of oil around and between the lifters. Most of it will drip away to the lower engine within an hour. I'm sure there is oil that splashes up all over the underside of the cover and that is where seepage after shut down comes from. Ain't much but that is THE ONLY WAY oil is gonna run over the gasket, the pools of oil in the bottom of the head are well below the gasket. Good half inch at least. Enough to maybe keep a film wet so that the oil might creep right up the inside of the head wall to the gasket. Maybe. I can see oil doing that for 1/2 inch straight up but definitely no oil is pooling right at the gasket level. Absolutely 0 oil pressure.

BTW, /our earlier discussion, looks like the shoulder of the head cover bolts rest against the tower. That is what locks the bolt. The head cover bolt shoulder tightens against the camshaft cap there (as I believe Hub was referring to in a previous post). IMHO, the bolt bottoming as designed is not going to cause the bolt to snap unless it is way over-torqued. I don't understand how this happened under normal torque spec. I can see how a bolt might snap if it is turned too hard after it was locktighted. Still seems you would have to twist the bjesus out of it. I have had much smaller bolts stuck 10x harder than these things.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/27/2011 @ 12:08 AM *

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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Hang on Grn, looks like there is a pool of oil very close to the level of the bottom of the gasket right in that front left corner. That pic was at least a few days after that last start and still a pool stands in the corner there. I did not notice it much after removing the camshafts but that may be because they were displacing some of the oil when in---which is what they would do when the bike is in operating condition.

I wouldn't try to think this thing to death Rook...

But that's what I do, Grn. It's sorta my lot in life to ponder every possible outcome if I have the time. wut time is it now??? 1 am here.

One more, read the thread at BL and copper or brass washers were used on a couple bikes. That's a small measure of protection against stripping threads. Personally, I doubt that a soft metal washer would make any dif unless you intended to torque MORE than spec which has not been recommended by many. 87 inch lbs or just until you see the gasket stick out. Look for a tiny bit of oil to seep. 1:34 am still thinking.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/27/2011 @ 12:34 AM *

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Nah...I was just teasin ya.It can be a good thing to think outside the box.Lots of people don't,and get into all kinds of stuff.I'm kinda in between.I'm very leary about overtightening bolts on this bike cause I had a few so tight....Had to use a chisel and hammer to get em to turn.Naturally,I replaced em.But the metals on this bike do have a tendency on some of em to bond with the fastener(s).On the other hand...I try and be as simplistic as possible when doing something.I hate redoing anything!If someone's suggestion sounds just,well,like the long way around...I usually will find a way to shorten it some."common sense" can be situational.What seems right to one guy may seem totally NOT to someone else.I'll say this though...and you know it already...oversqueezing some of these gaskets and such can create a bad seal just as much as having one too loose.There is an optimum service limit....

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/27/2011 @ 12:57 AM *

oversqueezing some of these gaskets and such can create a bad seal just as much as having one too loose.There is an optimum service limit....

I would imagine so. The metal ones, I think there would be more leeway but the rubbers, matbe they seal here and then leave a gap there unless they are squeezed just about right.

I'm out to put some washers on those bolts now. I have never heard anyone suggest the bolt gaskets be changed. Seems to me that might be something that would help a bit. Next time it will be new washers on the cover top and at the edge and head hole gaskets for the plugs too. By that time I will know this well enough that I will be able to install without a leak by feel alone. New gaskets, old gaskets, washers, 1, 2, 0.....I'll have it down.

I really don't think those threads are gonna strip a few in lbs this way or that. I mean, a cheap torque wrench ought to be just fine as long as you are close to the middle of the range on the tool. You don't use a 75-250 in lb wrench for a reliable 87 in lb torque unless it was a very expensive wrench. I guess no matter what, the last decision is always based on the mech's estimation of the situation.

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I went the full 87 in lbs. Did all 6 bolts, 1 washer. Tightened in the proper sequence each one a little bit at a time. None bottomed out. No locktight. The bottom edge of the gasket seemed like it stuck out a littl bit like a roof eave. Felt a bead of oil squeeze out under the gasket. Strange, saw no oil squeeze out at the top of the gasket.

here is the proper torque sequence.

Grn, I was really having a coronary as I tightened up the the front left bolt to the final 87 in lbs. seemed like it was trurning TOO easy. Easier than the last time I turned it. OH SHIT, did I go and strip my threads???? why the fock didn't I listen to Grn?? It was very awkward turning with the extension and the universal joint adapter it requires to get in on that one. Very hard to feel the bolt. It turned about an eighth of a turn (the others were hardly moving at this point, going from 80 to 87 in lbs) FINALLY thank GOD I hear the wrench click. SHwew. I think it is okay. If it stripped I don't think it would click. Def no click if the shank snapped.

tomorrow, I will start er up and have a look. The CCT is leaking a little bit too. Saw a bead of oil along the seam of the head /crankcase. Came from the CCT, I'm sure. Looking to me like you have to go pretty close to torque spec if you want parts to seal. Nice to save the threads but if it leaks, not much good. Maybe another shakedown run if I can get the fairings on.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/12/2011 @ 12:31 PM *

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I only used the tool kit open end wrench to tighten mine.Had a better feel for me than a socket and whatever.I think ya got er done Rook...I doubt she's gonna seep anymore .You've got that APE on there,don't you?Dumb question here...but you DID reinstall the O-ring,right?It should not be seeping.

* Last updated by: Grn14 on 11/28/2011 @ 1:04 AM *

I did NOT install the APE yet. Did not want to change too many engine accoutrements all at once in case there would be a problem. would want to have as FEW variables as possible to investigate. So I reinstalled the OEM tensioner which is a might bit tricky to reset and then spring open. But I got it. And I am as certain as I can be that the O-ring was on it.

I have read a few threads started about leaking CCTs. Both OEM and APE. The OEM has a better O-ring AFAIC tell. I still need to torque it down. I have been going with 20% lower torque than specced. That is Hub's advaice to save onb thread wear. Great idea but I am going to far with the 20%. I will have to go closer to spec on the CCT screws like I did on the head cover bolts. Maybe it is my torque wrench too. Seems sofetr than my others(well I know it is cuz I tested them on the same bolt). ? It's all conjecture once this is fixed for good.

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The bottom edge of the gasket seemed like it stuck out a littl bit like a roof eave.

I see in a vid where i have a closeup of the motor before the bolts were tightened down like they are now. The eave sticks out all the way around the gasket. That is not an indication of proper crush I road tested tonight and the motor was dry after riding. i felt the gasket at the front left corner of the head cover. A bit of oil expelled out from under the "Eave" when I pressed on it No drop of oil hanging off the header stud. None running down the side. Good enough.

* Last updated by: Rook on 11/29/2011 @ 10:31 PM *

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Rook...I doubt she's gonna seep anymore

I woulda guessed not too but it seems as though it is. The leak must be very slight. Th oil forms a very thin film as though it were wiped on. The washers slowed the leak down but didn't stop it.
New gasket and head cover bolt washers next time.

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Hey Rook and Grn14,
I have been reading up on valve cover issues here to educate myself if and when mine leaks. I got 2800 mile on my 2010 14 and hope not have a leak at all. I work in power plants on turbines and also jet engines and all types of machinery. Any time we torque bolts we have to get an engineer to calculate the torque if we use oil or never-seize on the threads... they usually decrease the torque 20% for that..... extensions and universal joints add a percentage.
I did a quick search to see if I could find something in writing but only found a couple things that I attached to this. I wonder if using the universal as you said you did (quote from Rook)" OH SHIT, did I go and strip my threads???? why the fock didn't I listen to Grn?? It was very awkward turning with the extension and the universal joint adapter it requires to get in on that one. Very hard to feel the bolt. It turned about an eighth of a turn (the others were hardly moving at this point, going from 80 to 87 in lbs) FINALLY thank GOD I hear the wrench click.

Just maybe bolt isn`t torqued enough! Just my 2cents also gaskets never get reused in the kingdom of money power plants. Everything gets new gaskets when taken apart. Just trying to help solve the mystery. I cut and pasted stuff below in my brief search on the topic.

question about torque wrenches
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wtfbbq Posted: Dec 11 2005, 10:32 AM Quote

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when using a universal joint extention does the amout of torque you apply to the bolt the same as the amout of torque read from the torque wrench?

some friends at work and i were arguing this, i say no it doesnt change it, its no different than using a strait extention because you really dont change the axis of rotation and the distance the end of the extention travels is the same distance that the point at which torque is read travels
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Schneibster Posted: Dec 11 2005, 10:53 AM Quote

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Actually, there're two problems with using a universal on a torque wrench.

The first is, there's friction in the joints.

The second is, when you apply a force at an angle, you don't get the full force in the original direction; it's a (relatively) complicated formula. Keep in mind where you'd be at if you tried to use it at a right angle: the wrench would "click," but none of the torque would be applied to the bolt, at least not in the direction it turns; the force would all be applied perpendicular to the direction the bolt runs, alright, but not in the direction it turns. If you go look the complicated formula up, it's based on the angle; at such-and-such an angle, you get so-and-so percentage of the torque applied to the wrench applied in the direction the bolt turns, and the rest goes in this other perpendicular direction and doesn't go into tightening the bolt.

So the upshot is, the bolt won't be tight enough if you use a universal.

Trust me, I've had the same argument myself, and we proved it by tightening a bolt with the universal on and bent 45 degrees, and then checking the torque without the universal. I was on the other end of the bet than you are, and I got to drink the brewskis.

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Just maybe bolt isn`t torqued enough!

wondered the same thing but I'm not about to chance it right now. Maybe if the gasket was new. This is definitely not worth stripping threads with the old rubber parts in there.

From what I have noted. The difference between 70 in lbs and 87 in lbs (that is about 20%) does not equate to more than 1/4 of a turn. It would seem odd that the precise magic number where the torque just stops the leak is 87 in lbs. You would think there would be some room for error.

Just my 2cents also gaskets never get reused in the kingdom of money power plants. Everything gets new gaskets when taken apart.

That was the rule i grew up with too. When I was in high school, I spent a couple summers around a real good truck mech. Not every day but enough to figure out he was a really smart guy. Most of the time when things were done on the cheap he would shake his head and often he was right.

IMHO, a rubber gasket isn't really worth reusing. I would only reuse if it was nowhere near its service limit. Others seem to have good luck reusing the head cover gasket. One good source told me he just paints them and throws them back on.

Black, I know some people think this is crazy but If you want to be leak free as long as possible, I would stay away from synthetic. If you don't mind a little leakage, give it a try. My current synthetic oil is lighter weight than recommended. Maybe that is part of the reason it seeps. I will be storing with conventional 10/40.

* Last updated by: Rook on 12/11/2011 @ 8:16 PM *

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Rook, I think the debate is still on going about synthetic oil and leaks. I too just changed my (conventional) oil 10/40 for winter and will change it again in the spring. If and when I switch to synth I will take a closer look to see if valve cover is OK. For now I will change oil every 1000 miles if it`s a waste or not. Only have about 2800 miles on it.

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I ran Full syn 10/40 when mine was seeping.I washered it,continuing on with full syn.She never seeped again after 'the fix'.Good job on those bolts sequences Rook...Very Nice.

Thanks Grn. There are a number of new how tos comming up this winter. The head cover bolt tightenning sequence is mentioned but not even shown or described in the earlier ZX-14 SMs. I got that tightenning sequence info from the 2008 SM.

I just got the bikes winterized and Rotella 15W-40 synthetic is what I had so that went in the 14 along with about a half quart of conventional Kawi oil. It runs good, especially for cold but the lighter weight must leak a little easier. It is very minor. Like I said, if the rubber plate was still on, i might not notice the slight film over rthe front left. Nothing collecting on the header stud.

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