It's good when you guys ask question, shows me where to begin. i'm sure I have missed some obvious points ???? Work in progress

Please tell me why after 8 passes the other night my win prep 8 software from pod300 and my spread sheet from the auto tune is reading that my AFR'S are all over the place in the 9000rpm @ 100% throttle area in 5th gear with my autotune target AFR'S are set at 12.4 in that area . i get afr's from 9's to 14's which do i believe to be true.

"auto tune is reading that my AFR'S are all over the place in the 9000rpm @ 100% throttle area in 5th gear with my autotune target AFR'S are set at 12.4 in that area . i get afr's from 9's to 14's which do i believe to be true."

if current fuel table makes an AFR that is a lot different than 12.4 (say 14-15ish) in the 9000 rpm/100% TP area and you have your Min/Max trims set high (I'm pretty sure 20% would be high enough), Autotune is drastically adding and subtracting fuel every tenth of a second trying to hit 12.4 . I can see from viewing 1 frame/x in my video, AutoTune corrections bounce back and forth adding subtracting to hone in on the exact AFR entered in the target AFR cells. I saw my AFR go between 9 and 14 to hit my target AFR of 13.5 at idle. The target AFR stabilized in less than a second but my fueling was very close from the start. AutoTune can't maintain the target AFR for long because of minute changes in throttle and rpm (not to mention other factors) but it should get the AFR close after repeated runs. If you're making a big change in target AFR that will require a big change in fuel which means a lot of runs.

In eight runs, you probably spent a total of 8 seconds in this zone you are having trouble with. I'd try accepting the trim that puts you closest to your target AFR since you can see the best trim in the datalog. Autotune is probably giving you an average of all the trims it collected in each cell. In other words, you might do better by hand picking. Those of us not datalogging just have to go with the average given by Autotune. You could also make your Max/Min trim small but that will probably take a hundred runs if you are looking for a big change in AFR.

Why do I have a feeling that badzx14r is pulling the piss out of Romans on this one?

Yeah 7 years ago this test was done and every time i use the autotune and if you dummies want to believe autotune is a self mappping close loop system "please do". It just shows how stupid this forum and members are to knowledge of what tuning and how products work. god help the people who let y'all work on their bikes or ask for advise . nothing worst than misinformation but the internet is full of it !!!!!!

I wanted to put this ridiculous debate to rest at the risk of arguing with an idiot. As suggested earlier, take a video of:
-pulling the map from the PCV
-clearing out all existing trims and target AFR
-set the target AFR to something different in the target cells
-Enable autotune, set it to start right away and have a large max enrichment/enleanment trim valeues
-Upload the modified map/tables to the PCV
-Start the engine and watch the results

The O2 sensor has a heating element in it and the engine was previously warmed up before the video so for the purpose of showing that the autotune does adjust fueling on the fly and is thus technically a closed loop fueling system.

In the video, you can clearly see the fuel and trim tables before and after adjusting the target AFR, you can see that the AFR reading changes after a few seconds in the specific cell to try and get to the target AFR. You can even hear the effect that the different fuel rates have on the engine.

https://youtu.be/LeeBXcrD2Cs

* Last updated by: Nightmare on 8/26/2016 @ 9:56 AM *

technically is right . it only close loop to the fuel trim table and you have to accept or ignore changes to the base map. but you know as i know a true "closed loop system" changes base fuel map

Badzx14r,

A closed loop fueling system does not need to make changes to the base map, if you look at my previous post you'll see that I used terms like "long term fuel trim" and "short term fuel trim". I believe this is what you are talking about, however, even the long term fuel trim in a vehicle can be reset but would be similar in concept to modifying a base map.

Here's a definition regarding a closed loop fuel system:

Control system in which the output has an effect on the input quantity in such a manner that the input quantity will adjust itself based on the output generated is called closed loop control system. Open loop control system can be converted in to closed loop control system by providing a feedback. This feedback automatically makes the suitable changes in the output due to external disturbance. In this way closed loop control system is called automatic control system.

http://www.electrical4u.com/control-system-closed-loop-open-loop-control-system/

If you can find information from multiple reputable sources that clearly states that a closed loop fueling system must make permanent adjustments to the base fuel map then I'd say you're right; the autotune isn't a closed loop system, but that would mean that many other major vehicle manufacturers also don't have closed loop fueling systems.

thus technically a closed loop fueling system

your own words

I'm done trying to convince you guys that autotune is not a true closed loop system or at best a poor closed loop system .

I just like to hear answers now on why my target AFR'S are not showing up pass after pass after passs and i can accept trims till the map get so out of balance the bike can't get out of it own way going down the track . I'm not a big enough idiot to run with a laptop strap to my gas tank going down the track with a gopro @ 170mph. I'm using a PCV, Autotune AT-200, POD300 and logging every pass . And when viewing logs in the same areas @ 100% throttle the logs show different AFR'S in the same gear. The AFR'S do not match or even close to the set target AFR'S after 16 seconds of lapse time with 160 sample readings . Which AFR'S SHOULD I TRUST !!

if current fuel table makes an AFR that is a lot different than 12.4

With autotune dis enabled and just running off my base map my AFR'S are 12.0 to 12.6 in those area's .

My base map is better than the auto tune mapping and reason i disenable AT and run base map only and manually input changes . My IAT AND MY APS sensors move my AFR'S Depending on air temps , engine temp is always in normal range and fuel is tested for same percentages.

So... basically your advice for Rook's thread on how to use the autotune module on his bike in order to develop a how-to thread is: autotune sucks, go buy something else?

I believe that is the exact definition of an internet troll

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

If you'd like to open up a NEW thread to discuss the merits of Holley's aftermarket ECU, that would most likely be a great thread with lots of good information for someone considering that upgrade.

If you'd like to open up a NEW thread to discuss the merits of Holley's aftermarket ECU, that would most likely be a great thread with lots of good information for someone considering that upgrade.

You can not answer the question

So Now STFU BEFORE THIS TROLL BREAKS IT OFF IN YOUR ASS

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/26/2016 @ 6:42 PM *

if current fuel table makes an AFR that is a lot different than 12.4

With autotune dis enabled and just running off my base map my AFR'S are 12.0 to 12.6 in those area's .

Wow. I don't get it. This may be a similar situation to what untamed and I both have experienced at 4000-5000 rpm.

I did get that area zeroed in last three columns but it will be interesting to see if that problem comes back when I go over the the whole map a second time. I guess the best thing to do is do what you did and shut it off. Use it as an open loop system only. Put your own trims into the cells you are having trouble with and find the AFR you want without AutoTune. If it's just that one area giving you trouble, use AutoTune for rest of the fuel table only.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/26/2016 @ 7:27 PM *

Makes no difference I will tell you anyway. But that will be ten beers i think,,,, lost count. And believe me, you do want the answer. Us turbo guys needed that answer years ago. And I know you know I dug for that exact answer for years until I found it. Everything that is happening to you now has already happen to me ten fold. That is Until I fixed it. And you can too.

ok....so....? If you're waiting for 1bad to ask again, I don't think that's going to happen.

and, By "throttle lift" (regarding AutoTune's trims after it should not be collecting trims anymore), did you mean the exact same thing as throttle cut to 0%, rpm winding down to idle?

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/26/2016 @ 8:57 PM *

ok....so....? If you're waiting for 1bad to ask again, I don't think that's going to happen

correct I've done ask twice and still no answer.

rook its easier to log your AFR'S then manually put your AFR'S into base map than to have autotune do it for you is what i've found LONG AGO and the reason the PCV is still on my bike . Autotune throws to many false numbers even trims AFR'S in spots you never been operating in !!!

Yeah, if you get a weird AFR where you cannot hold the rpm at a particular TP, datalogging is the only way you're going to see it and fix it manually. If you see a weird trim show up repeatedly, you know there is a problem but it's hard to see the AFR it produces with how fast that cell gets passed through during a run. I tried it once and it seemed to improve but no way to know for sure without datalogging which I will be doing soon.

Autotune throws to many false numbers even trims AFR'S in spots you never been operating in !!!

I noticed I got a trim of 1 at 12000 rpm and my bike does not even go to 12000. Dj said that some vehicles have their own excell pump feature in the ECU. Many ATVs have this and when the excell pump kicks in, the injectors spray 10x as many squirts as normal. The PCV software reads rpm off of the injector pulse so when excell pupm is active, you get your actual rpm x 10. so a trim ends up at the highest rpm cell in your table. Other than that, IDT I've seen any trims where I have not been during a run....but I am only tuning one column at a time with all other AFRs zeroed.

So how 'bout this "throttle lift?" is that zero throttle with engine decelling? The term sounds like it might be the effect of the rpm rising while throttle is held steady but reading your whole post from yesterday, it looks like you were saying that Autotune thinks the throttle is still OPEN a while after the throttle has been sprung to 0%. And the false trims only show up in the fuel dump zone we tune in Neutral? So we shut the fuel dump zone off during road tuning to not get any false trims?

Why don't we get the same false trim effect while tuning in Neutral?

I have a couple hypothesis but I hate to presume.

Have you guys ever gone back to read something you wrote the next day and thought WTF ? Did I really write that.
Well I just did.Long day, walking writing dead.

correct I've done ask twice and still no answer.

Answer when I get home. 14 hour shift looms ahead.

"throttle lift" (regarding AutoTune's

Yes Rook, when you let off the gas, or lift off the gas pedal, cell tracer changes direction

* Last updated by: Romans on 8/27/2016 @ 5:06 AM *

rook its easier to log your AFR'S then manually put your AFR'S into base map than to have autotune do it for you is what i've found LONG AGO and the reason the PCV is still on my bike . Autotune throws to many false numbers even trims AFR'S in spots you never been operating in !!!

I agree, had similar results.
I tried both methods to see how different they were. ( in other words auto tune method and manual method) firstly I did the autotune and accepted trims as DJ suggest and damn did I make nonsense. So then I went and learnt some more about autotune and realized what I was doing wrong.
Secondly - manual intervention. I set a target AFR and data logged, made changes and repeated until I was happy. I found as a "newbie" to PCV etc it took longer. So my happy medium was to use auto tune to get the trims down to very small/zero and then manually work on the problem areas.

Now I simply look at the POD300 for any areas that autotune might have made "funny" changes. If it doesn't correct itself then I will log that area and manually make changes, however it's very seldom that I have to.

I assume though in racing conditions it's a whole different ball game and the results may be different.

I assume though in racing conditions it's a whole different ball game and the results may be different.

drag racing condition is just repetitive after i leave the line i'm 100% WOT for around 1260ft . so everything should look around the same on most all logs for that day GIVE AND TAKE TO CONDITIONS. when i view the logs i can see how fueling is effected by gear . its not a flat 12.4 its all over the place with autotune on with no 2 runs being alike on the AFR logs . after i disable autotune everything levels out.

1 pass is 8 seconds making 80 samples readings per pass.

untamed do you have your pod300 win prep 8 software grid laid out like a pcv fuel map grid .

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/27/2016 @ 7:38 AM *

Answer when I get home. 14 hour shift looms ahead.

your not going to find the answer at the house !!! but at a race track !!!

i'll be at one tonight again that makes twice in 1 week

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/27/2016 @ 7:51 AM *

Yes Rook, when you let off the gas, or lift off the gas pedal, cell tracer changes direction

I see why that would give false trims. The throttle is closed and air intake is at a minimum but cell tracer is still hitting cells in columns for open throttle. Apparently these false trims happen only along the path of the fuel dump stairway.

I see why it is necessary to shut off the cells of the fuel dump stairway when you road tune. I also see why you can't road tune the fuel dump stairway --you will get false trims in it when you let go of the throttle.

Why don't you get the false trims in the fuel dump stairway when you let go of the throttle in Nuetral?

EDIT: I guess because the cause of bad trims (decl popping and fuel dumping) is eliminated.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/16/2016 @ 6:23 PM *

Rook, I can still hear a throttle blip? I can hear the blip first and wait to see the map in that lag time getting to the map screen. It still looked like it followed your throttle move.

yes i made a couple light blips right at the end. I don't see a lag though compared to the sound. It would be helpful to see my throttle hand but that was not in the picture.

untamed do you have your pod300 win prep 8 software grid laid out like a pcv fuel map grid .

Yes, I have it exactly the same. It's the easiest way for me to work with the info.
admitadly, the more I use it the easier it gets to log, analyze and put in better manual trims.
Then I leave autotune to do its thing as I ride. So far it seems to work. I do still see a skew number now and then, but it works itself out in autotune.
However I'm never riding the same conditions repeatadly back to back where I could compare the various runs like you do when racing.
The closest I got is like Rook is doing with tuning each column. Yet here I see the trims get smaller and smaller and then I send that to the base map.

yes i made a couple light blips right at the en

* Last updated by: untamed on 8/28/2016 @ 5:22 AM *

It's a discipline you need to learn when tuning not to blip the throttle.

Seems to me, blipping should have the same effect as tuning in N. If you have the stairway zeroed, there should be no trims created there, blip or not. If you open the throttle more than 10% when you blip, I guess you might enter cells you just got trims for. The blip trim might not be as good as a longer sample taken in a 6th gear run but it's not going to kill your fueling, especially if your Min/Max trim is set low.

I did about 8 runs today at 80% throttle. I forgot you had to click GET TABLE the first three runs. LOL Thought I might have had it perfect with all zeros. So I'm still whittling away at it. A few more an I'll get it. I'm going to 8k rpm and cutting. Over 120 mph. I've never gone so fast so often in all my days of riding!

Again i am seeing small trims repeatedly after doing three runs. I think it has to do with variation in throttle from one run to the next. You peg the throttle in the 80% column at 83% and then the next run, 89%. I'm sure that must have some impact on the trims. No way around it. The best compromise would be to find the middle TP for each column and tune for that.

Brings up an interesting conundrum. What TPs are really included in each colummn? I am getting into the 80% column opening to 78%. I think the column TP designations are just a vague label. It would be interesting to find exactly at which TP each starts and ends. It really doesn't make sense to have the 40 % column include 40-60 % and the 60% column include 60-80% and the 80b% column include 80-......to what percent? 100? No. there is a separate column for 100%. Makes sense to have one exact collumn for 100% so you can get perfect AFR for peak performance but I think they coulda labeled the other columns more precisely.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/31/2016 @ 10:15 PM *

I suspect its this way to make it easier to adjust the fuel map and that the throttle positions between 40% and 60% or similarly between 8,000 and 8,250 RPM are a calculated average, potentially based on a formula more complex than a simple average of the numbers. But obviously this is simply my guess and it would be interesting to hear DJ's description is.