I will ask them. If the 60% column includes all TPs from 60-80%, does opening the throttle to 60% create different trims than opening to 80%? We'll find out what they have to say.

It would be very easy to find out what the range of TPs are in each column. Simply warm the bike up and then open the throttle. Watch the TP gauge as cell tracer moves from one column to the next. You could do this with the engine shut off.

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I'm a bit bewildered. I'm doing all these runs and accepting trims. Been doing runs until I got all 0,1 and 2s. Just compared my map to the base map and 20% and higher is identical. I must have stated to do something wrong. Don't know how it escaped me for this long.

Just went out to bike and opened trims. The last run was not applied so I looked for the highest trim which was a -5 in the 4750 cell. Clicked accept all trims, Yes, SEND TABLE.

Clicked fuel table and checked 4750 cell. Yep, it went from -10 to -15 as it should. Opened base map and checked same cell, it was at -10 just like my fuel table had been before accepting the trims. Clicked GET MAP and the GDFing 4750 cell was back to -10. Tried Get Table to apply trims again. They were gone. Were applied to my map but did not save for some reason.

WTF? easily 30~ 35 highly illegal runs and not one GD trim saved!

I believe I initially used SEND MAP to accept trims. Started using SEND TABLE and it appears to work when you click to view the fuel table but then you go back a second time and the fuel table is not changed at all. shit I can't believe this. How did I think I tuned 3 columns before noticing this? unBFing-lievable!

Does anyone else accept trims by clicking Send Table?

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/2/2016 @ 8:25 PM *

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I believe I initially used SEND MAP to accept trims. Started using SEND TABLE and it appears to work when you click to view the fuel table but then you go back a second time and the fuel table is not changed at all.

Seems that was the problem. Did the 20% column over today. about five runs worth. 6th gear 2500 rpm to 6000. Got small trims of 4 or less. Couple runs to just over 72500 and no trims at all up there. Same thing I remember seeing last time.

I used SEND Map to apply the adjustments permanently and it seems to have worked.

I have a feeling what's happening is that there is the theoretical map in your laptop and the real map in your PCV. To send stuff to the real map, you have to click SEND MAP. To send stuff to the laptop map, you press SEND TABLE.

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The POD-300 has 4 screens you can switch between and they are all easy to read.

The LCD-200 has 6 screens. Hard to to switch screens and hard to read in daylight but way more info if you actually need all that. One of the displays has 7 channels.

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I believe I initially used SEND MAP to accept trims. Started using SEND TABLE and it appears to work when you click to view the fuel table but then you go back a second time and the fuel table is not changed at all. shit I can't believe this. How did I think I tuned 3 columns before noticing this? unBFing-lievable!

You answered before I could reply. Send map is what saves it to the base map. Also try and get into the habit of saving the runs. I.e 40% run 1, run 2 etc. this way if something happens you can always go back to a previous run, rather than have to start all over.

POD 300, can be set from 1,2 and four screen options. You decide what you want to see within those screens as well.

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Send map is what saves it to the base map.

Thanks for following, untamed. I did some messing around with the software this AM and I think I have it figured out.

Get Map gets the whole map with all tables from the PCV and puts a copy on your laptop. Now you can mess with that all you want without changing the real map in the PCV.

Send Map sends the whole map you have on your lap top to the PCV and overwrites the entire map that was there.

Get Table gets whatever table you have opened on the laptop from the PCV. The table from the PCV overwrites the table that was opened on the laptop.

Send Table Sends ONLY the table that is currently opened on the laptop to the PCV and overwrites the table that was in the PCV.

SO what I was doing was, Trims>Get Table>Map Tools>AutoTune Tables>Accept All Trims>OK>Send Table.....thinking sending the trims table would complete the permanent adjustment. After all, the trims table is open, I did just click Accept All Trims and OKed it and the trims were applied according to the message box (probably status bar too). So why would I send the whole map? Just send table, right? NO, no, no. After accepting trims and OKing, the fuel table on the laptop is adjusted. If you recall this zeros out the trims table on the laptop. By clicking Send Table, I was sending a zeroed out trims table to the PCV which essentially has no effect on anything. If i would have had the fuel table open after accepting trims and OKing and then clicked send table, the adjusted fuel table would have been sent to the PCV and the tuning process would have proceeded as it should. Tried it out with a manual adjustment this morn and that's how it works.

Based on this, I'd say you could accept trims after each run you do so the fuel table in the laptop carries the net adjustment of all. As long as you save a copy of this on the desktop you could send the whole map or just the fuel table to adjust the map in the PCV at a later time if you want. Once you shut the computer off though, the whole map therein is discarded so Save Map or Send Map or Send Table with fuel table open before shutting down.

Moral of the story is, Send the whole map or if you want to just send the fuel table, make sure that is what you have open when sending.

I'm at a loss as to how I ended up with negligible trims by accepting trims to the fuel table on the laptop and sending zeroed out trims to the PCV. There must have been something more happening but I'm not going to worry about it now that I have the right way understood.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/4/2016 @ 6:58 PM *

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Also try and get into the habit of saving the runs. I.e 40% run 1, run 2 etc. this way if something happens you can always go back to a previous run, rather than have to start all over.

You mean do a Save Map after each run? Good idea. You can toss them in the trash after you know the trims are accepted. It's a lot of fun to make the trims but considering the legal risk, it makes sense to treat them like they were made of gold.

Holiday weekend here in the US. My Spidy senses were telling me to stay home and I did. I'm realizing that speeding is a numbers game. You will get caught if you do it long enough. Could be 1 in 50 runs you encounter a cop but you never know if that will be run #50 or run #3. I need a laser /radar detector though I'm sure the effectiveness is reduced while doing 130+ mph. LOL might only be doing 100 by the time they lock onto you.

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You mean do a Save Map after each run? Good idea. You can toss them in the trash after you know the trims are accepted. It's a lot of fun to make the trims but considering the legal risk, it makes sense to treat them like they were made of gold.

Exactly. I think in essence DJ made this for Dyno runs and then adapted it to road riding. If I'm tuning on a dyno I would accept tables and then when I'm happy send it to the base map. The way we are doing it requires the send map function after each run to ensure its saved on the base map.

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The way we are doing it requires the send map function after each run to ensure its saved on the base map.

I was thinking the same thing when i wrote:
Based on this, I'd say you could accept trims after each run you do so the fuel table in the laptop carries the net adjustment of all. As long as you save a copy of this on the desktop you could send the whole map or just the fuel table to adjust the map in the PCV at a later time if you want.

Thinking a bit more on this, it is necessary to send the trims to the base map after each run before you do the next run. The trims are made for the current numbers in the base map and if we don't update those numbers, the trims are not going to change. You would keep getting 9~12 in the same cell over and over if you did not apply that trim to the base map. If you apply the trim, Autotune hones in with a smaller trim. Anyway, if you want to preserve the base map as it was before tuning that day, just save IT to the desktop.,...sort of achieving the same goal using the reverse procedure of what we're talking about.

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Back to the discussion about how we often see trims in the same cell or the same 2~4 adjacent cells after repeated runs. What I have observed seems to support what I was told by Dj. Some vehicles have ECUs with an accel pump feature that can cause the PCV to read a false rpm. The PCV reads rpm off the injector pulse. If an accel pump response to rapid throttle increase is causing the injectors to spray more shots/stroke than normal, the PCV reads a false high rpm.

I have noticed that when I first snap the throttle open, cell tracer jumps up and down the column within a range of approximately 1000 rpm or less. On my last 3 or four runs, i kept getting a trim in one cell even after all others were zeroed out. The cell that kept getting a trim was the 27500 rpm cell. I was opening the throttle at ~2000 rpm so 27500 would be right in the zone of where the rpm would jump to. Perhaps the extra pulses or additional fuel or both are not consistent so a trim happens in the same cells on each run despite previous adjustments. I will have test this further to determine if it seems to be a bonafide fact. If it is, it probably would mean the lowest few cells in each column are the ones effected by the rpm fluctuation and they will have to be adjusted manually to get proper AFR. I was doing runs from 4000 rpm and I believe this was happening then just as it did today from 2000 rpm.

and now I have my 20% and 40% columns Autotuned from 2000~8000 rpm. Did 60% to 8000 also. Almost back where I should have been before Labor Day.

The AFR is reading about 12.5 in the fuel dump stairway so obviously that needs reworking. higher TPs and rpm look much better.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/5/2016 @ 4:08 PM *

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The PCV reads rpm off the injector pulse. If an accel pump response to rapid throttle increase is causing the injectors to spray more shots/stroke than normal, the PCV reads a false high rpm.

thats not how a injector works . a signal is how long a injector stays open . its time not pulses

HOW Injectors work

Basic Theory

EFI uses solenoid valves called injectors to meter fuel delivery. Most vehicles today use 1 injector per cylinder. When the solenoid is energized, fuel sprays out into the valve port. Fuel is delivered to the injector by a high pressure electric pump at around 40 psi. Fuel delivery is controlled by the injectors which are cycled by the computer. The computer produces a signal to open the injectors for a certain length of time depending on engine conditions relayed by sensors. The longer that the injector is open, the more fuel is injected. As engine load and rpm are increased, the injector open times are increased to match increasing airflow. This computer output signal is called the injector pulse width. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel is injected.

i'm sure somebody will tell me i'm wrong

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 9/6/2016 @ 5:37 PM *

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The PCV reads rpm off the injector pulse. If an accel pump response to rapid throttle increase is causing the injectors to spray more shots/stroke than normal, the PCV reads a false high rpm.

thats not how a injector works . a signal is how long a injector stays open . its time not pulses

The Dj tech said it was pulses unless I misunderstood him. Maybe if it is a spray that is extra long in duration, AT percieves that as a false high rpm? Whether it's a stock excell pump or not, I think there is some kind of anomoly that happens when you first open the throttle and it is difficult for AT to get an accurate O2 sample. Datalogging will tell us and I'm just starting to do that. Probably out of time for this season but come spring, I'll be back at it.

i'm sure somebody will tell me i'm wrong

Not me. That is how i envisioned an injector to work. One continuous shot/stroke. I see no reason to pulse multiple times rather than just spray longer or at higher pressure. It's not like one intake stroke last a long time that pulses are going to help disperse the fuel spray or something.

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Yeah, the LCD-200's playback of log files leaves something to be desired. IDT it shows ten samples/second but it gives a general idea of what is happening. A video of the LCD would show much more detailed info and you could pause and replay anywhere you want. I have hope the Excell tables will be much more useful than the playbacks. Playback is a cool feature though.

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The Dj tech said it was pulses unless I misunderstood him

As engine load and rpm are increased, the injector open times are increased to match increasing airflow. This computer output signal is called the injector pulse width. The longer the pulse width, the more fuel is injected.

which would deliver more fuel
a injector that is open for the entire intake stroke
or a injector that has multi strokes/shots during the entire intake stroke.

hint
every time the injector shut off less fuel was just delivered

injector duty cycle

Injector Duty Cycle

You hear it all the time... but what exactly IS the Injector Duty Cycle and where do these numbers come from? It is really quite simple. As with most other terms you may have learned browsing this site, it is a calculation. Simply put, it is the amount of time a fuel injector is energized or on during an engine cycle (intake, compression, combustion and exhaust).

that why this become important when modifying a motor or adding a power adder

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 9/6/2016 @ 8:34 PM *

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that why this [Injector Duty Cycle] become important when modifying a motor or adding a power adder

I believe you can log that with Dj software. I suppose if you are adding fuel and keep coming back with a lean AFR, the injectors might be maxed out. The engine duty cycle cyl #1, 2, 3, 4 would tell you if you were maxing your injectors, I suppose.

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I believe you can log that with Dj software. I suppose if you are adding fuel and keep coming back with a lean AFR, the injectors might be maxed out. The engine duty cycle cyl #1, 2, 3, 4 would tell you if you were maxing your injectors, I suppose.

CORRECT they say to keep your injectors under 80% to 90% duty cycle .

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Good. Great tip. I will definitely be watching that especially when I start spraying NOS>

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I'm back where I should have been two weeks ago. I have my 80% column tuned from 2500 rpm to 8000. 2000rpm is too low to open to 80%. Labors too hard even with 45 tooth sprocket. About 5 runs total. All 6th gear over 130 mph. They are quick though when your in the throttle hard. I feel safer doing an 80% run than a 20% run.

I noticed cell tracer doing the jumping bean act again and as expected, I kept getting that weird 4 trim in the 3000 cell and also small trims in 3500. I did a few extra runs 2500-5000 rpm to clean those up after everything else was coming back with no trims. It will be interesting to see what the datalogs look like. I'm predicting the lowest 500-1000 rpm is going to have wrong AFR. Because cell tracer isn't able to get an accurate sample. Something is giving it a confused rpm signal right at the beginning of every run. Maybe I will make a video of it tomorrow or the weekend. I did manage to get trims to all 0 with one or two 1s but I don't trust that beginning zone where trims a trim of 4 kept coming back. Why would it give 4 three times in a row instead of just giving a 12 from the start?

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/8/2016 @ 6:51 PM *

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Here's Dj's answer to my latest question.

Q: I have noticed that cell tracer will enter the 80% column with the throttle as low as 78%. If the 20, 40, 60 and 80% columns include such a wide range of TPs, is it possible to tune perfectly for all throttle positions? For example, if I am tuning the 80% column and do one run with the throttle held at 78%, are those trims also going to be appropriate for 87%?

A: Yes, all of the table cells interpolate from one cell to the next. For example, if you are at 70% throttle, the Power Commander will apply a 50/50 blend of what it has programmed into the 60% and into the 80% throttle columns.

So i assume if you tune with a 50/50 TP such as 70%, you will get trims for a 50/50 TP, such as 70%.

I doubt it matters a huge amount at this point....I mean, I am getting my columns to almost all 0s without hitting an exact TP. I certainly start the run over if I did not get the TP high enough but if I see cell tracer in the column I am tuning, I go with it. If a quick glance at the TP gauge shows it to be a little low, I'll roll to a higher TP in the run...as long as I don't go into the next column. In the future it will probably be best to mark the throttle grip according to the TP gauge before runs so I know I'm right at the TP I want to be at.

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Also, just finished my runs tonight and there was no real need to go fast anymore so I'm just cruising along about 60 . The suns low and behind me so I have excellent visibility which was pretty much the opposite when i did my runs (risky, stupid, I know). There is a beautiful long straight stretch of road ahead and I'm entertaining the thought of doing another run just for fun. A young deer walks out into the middle of the road so slow I wondered if it was injured or something. I downshift and he just stops. I downshift two more times and he's looking right at me just standing there. He runs across when I'm about 40 feet away. I guess he couldn't see me while staring into the sun. I had about 6 large turkeys run across in front of me earlier too.

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Got the 100% tuned from 2500 to 8000 rpm. Same pattern as the other TPs. Most and largest trims were down low, almost no adjustment required up high. All 1, 2, 3 and 4s from 2500-about 5000. Again I got a +4 about four times in a row in the 3000 and 3250 cells. After several runs, one cell zeroed and the other was at +2 the last run. The trims for those cells at the beginning of the run come back time and again but they do seem to get smaller and eventually go away if you do enough runs. WHat could be telling me to add fuel repeatedly like that? If it was an excel pump, AutoTune should tell me to subtract fuel. I'm just betting those cells will be vey rich when I datalog.

Rain tomorrow. Maybe one last run and an LCD playback log which I will film.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/9/2016 @ 6:39 PM *

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I pasted together photos of the base map and the AutoTuned map. The 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100% columns from each are side by side to compare. Overall, the Autotune map subtracts more fuel than the base map. There seems to be a tendency to subtract a modest amount of fuel in the first few cells of the run and this is followed by one or two cells that are way richer than the base map. These were the cells that Autotune mysteriously kept giving + trims on sometimes after 4 or 5 runs. Other than those, there are only a few cells from all columns combined where the AutoTune map is richer than the base map. I'm guessing part of this generally reduced fueling is the fact that I'm 600 feet higher in elevation than where the base map was made. Also, could be due to the base map's richer AFR in some areas of the map. I am at a constant 13.1 throughout.

Will datalog ASAP and we will see how close AutoTune got me. Pretty hard to tell viewing the AFR gauge at high rpm/large TP but looks pretty good with some brief rich spots from what I have observed.

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I retuned 0, 2, 5% fuel dump zone on the road. Each column was tuned one at a time in Neutral and i rode the bike to cool the motor between Neutral runs. Seems much easier to keep the engine from getting real hot and avoids repeated shut off and on of the engine. The trims were small. Still not showing a steady 13.1 but mostly mid to upper 12s---but Autotune was not giving trims? Close but no cigar.

From what I can see looking at the AFR gauge, it appears that I am slightly rich with only a few areas that are slightly lean. As a safety measure, Autotune might generate trims a bit on the rich side in spite of the target AFR. I do see that Autotune brings the AFR to the target number with closed loop adjustments. Since I have been tuning one column at a time, I have had only the target AFR for that column filled. Autotune has not been able to do closed loop adjustments for this reason. Maybe what Autotune does is tune close to the target AFR erring on the rich side and then the closed loop is supposed to do the finishing touch leaning out the AFR where it should be but only temporarily.

I still have yet to successfully create a playback datalog because the LCD has an SD memory card error anytime the module receives a jar from slight bumps in the road. This does not happen as long as the LCD is securely mounted but with the tape and velcro setup I have, the tape is loosening after a few rides leaving a slight flop in the mount. The result is the LCD cuts in and out a lot which destroys the log. Kind of a bummer after doing a nice 2000-9000 rpm run at 100% TP only to find the error message on the screen. This run had only a single -1 trim above 8000. As expected from the general lack of trims up top, I think Autotune has it as good as it can get.

I will retune the 10 and 15% columns tomorrow and then I'm done. The rest is datalogging and trying some manual edits though I doubt I will finish before the end of the season.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/11/2016 @ 7:32 PM *

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Hey Rook,

Thanks for posting DJ's response, its nice to have confirmation on how it calculates the changes between throttle positions.

You have been mentioning various adjustments to the "base map" is your base map the "Romans map" in your signature? I wouldn't read a whole lot into these adjustments; every bike, location and application is different, so your fueling requirements will also be different. As long as your AFR remains close to your target and the engine performs properly, that's all that really matters.

Autotune mysteriously kept giving + trims on sometimes after 4 or 5 runs

It's entirely possible you are running into similar issues that I had. I had a range of cells where it kept removing fuel, which was fine for low speed/low RPM cruising (residential areas) but the engine struggled when accelerating through that RPM range.

There's a whole host of things that could be causing strange readings (ie, exhaust leak) but as long as the rest of the TP & RPM range give you good results I would recommend manually adjusting the map in the problem area until you see good results for your AFR and performance then zero out the target AFR table and be happy :)

Have you reached the point yet where you are seriously considering renting some time on a dyno? Since the whole point of an engine is to create torque the "major flaw" with tuning using the autotune only is you can't accurately measure the torque output of the engine. This means other than the AFR reading you are seeing on the LCD, you don't have any real good information about whether or not those adjustments are actually helping.

There is of course, the other "problem", which is an AFR that meets a drag racer's requirements may not necessarily meet yours, so at the end of the day the "best" AFR is going to be whatever suites you and your application. If the engine performs well with no obvious lagging, surging, sputtering, etc and you are happy with it then put a check mark in the win column and enjoy riding your motorcycle!

PS: I would recommend changing your target AFR in the crusing range to 14.7:1 for much better fuel economy.

I'm not making a big point about which map the base map is but the answer to your question is YES. It seems to have been a great place to start because i have not found most of the trims to be very large. It requires multiple runs but the trims are almost entirely single digit. I don't anticipate the refined map being much better in my case. The base map might turn out to be better given the fact it has more than one target AFR...but i will eventually be experimenting with multiple AFs myself.

I wouldn't read a whole lot into these adjustments; every bike, location and application is different, so your fueling requirements will also be different. As long as your AFR remains close to your target and the engine performs properly, that's all that really matters.

Agreed. Autotune will bring the AFR within .1 of the target AFR with closed loop adjustments if it's not dead on that day. I guesss if you hold the throttle and rpm long enough it might adjust it dead nuts on but the engine pulses seem to constantly change the trim and AFR so Autotune has a constant job to keep up. It is pretty interesting to speculate about the differences in the base map and my map though. As mentioned somewhere up there in the last stream of posts, I believe the first thousand rpm is difficult for Autotune to sample. It will be good to know that for certain when i get a detailed datalog.

Speaking of datalogs, when I did my first 9000 rpm run yesterday, I figure I must have been at about 140 mph. I let go of the throttle and felt the front shake a couple times. It did not send me out of control but it was alarming. Second run I tried softening it by snapping the throttle to ~50% to avoid messing up trims in the 100% column. The same thing happened but less pronounced. I think the front suspension is bouncing when i cut throttle and get all that back torque....so I'm not going there. I will have to try snapping to about 80-85% when i do my really high speed tuning next year...or else pull the clutch and coast to a lower speed. I'm not ready to die for this.

There are cells above the fuel dump stairway where cell tracer does not go in the neutral tuning but might go in road tuning. I refined those cells which are lower in rpm than the fuel dunp zone today. All that is left is to redo the 15% column and I'm calling it quits for the season. I still will need to tune over 8000 rpm but I'll save it for next year.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/12/2016 @ 6:52 PM *

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