I sent them an email asking why this was happening and will post the reply. If anyone has any idea of their own as to why this happens, I'd be interested. I've been 0ing it out when I notice it in trims but I see I have it in two of my fuel table columns.

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So how are our tuningpros making out ? I'm sure by now AFR's have all fallen in spec where u guys wanted them to be.

Sorry I couldn't add to the thread. We had no internet or phone service where we were staying. It was kind of nice.

We had no internet or phone service where we were staying. It was kind of nice.

As long as you know it's there when you need it. I go nuts when mine goes out.

As far as I can tell, my basic fine tuning skills have been perfected. Once you get the fuel dump stairway tuned, the rest is pretty simple. The biggest challenge is operating the bike at all throttle positions and rpm. The bike doesn't run well at 1700 rpm at any TP of course. I just use first gear for the low TP low rpm cells. For higher TP low rpm, I will probably just use 5th gear and skip the lowest rpm cells. The high rpm cells require a lot of road and a lot of courage. if you want to be sure the engine hits peak rpm for that TP, you have to hold it a few seconds.

My bike is tuned up to the 40% column. After my recent near miss with the law, I'm thinking an LSR course might be the only way I will finish the whole table.

Going back to y earlier question, 'why are there different target AFRs in most maps you see,' I think I know. If you really want the bike to run at it's best, it has to operate under a variety of conditions. Those conditions depend on individual riding style. So the next step is to learn what AFR does for different zones of the fuel table.

I don't think your map was too far off from what I have Auto Tuned it to. I've looked at the fuel table for your map and the adjusted map and there are only a few cells with changes of 15 or 20. The area of the map that has largest and most changes is the low TP/low rpm cells. After the 15% column, there were not too many changes. There are almost no changes at all above 5000 rpm. I think the last run for the 40% column was probably up to about 9000 rpm but I didn't get any trims up there. I'm assuming the rest of your fuel table might not even require any adjustment so there may be no immediate need to tune at the highest speed for me. I will be curious to compare the base map to the fine tuned map to see if I can discern a difference.

The tutorial is pretty much written. There are not so many photos because this is mostly theory. I just have to go back over the process and make sure I have it down. I might leave the high speed tuning portion of the tutorial at "proceed at your own risk." Once you know what you're doing up to 40% throttle, I don't see that there will be much to add to instruction. Of course, this whole topic could go deeper and deeper. Maybe we'll go there someday.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/14/2016 @ 9:13 AM *

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I just use first gear for the low TP low rpm cells.

This worked for TP 0-20. I'm not willing to yank the throttle to 40% in first gear from 1750 rpm. I tried doing it in second gear and the engine lugs too hard for the first half second. The only time I would ever see being on the throttle at that low of an rpm at 40% throttle would be while in the clutch.

So how should I tune it? Manually?

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We had no internet or phone service where we were staying. It was kind of nice.

As long as you know it's there when you need it. I go nuts when mine goes out.

But it wasn't. My kids hard a real hard time adjusting. But afterwards when they got use to it they changed and became ,,,,, different lets say,,,, in a good way. Nice not to see them without a phone glued to their face. End of technology would not suit them well Lol I had fun with it.

As far as I can tell, my basic fine tuning skills have been perfected. Once you get the fuel dump stairway tuned, the rest is pretty simple.

Yes it is very simple once you understand that there is more to it Dyno-Jets directions of just ride the bike. By now all you users of the software can see what a mess that makes. This is also why the masses believe Auto Tune can't and does not work. For some there is no telling them different.

My bike is tuned up to the 40% column. After my recent near miss with the law, I'm thinking an LSR course might be the only way I will finish the whole table.

Rook something amiss here. I would think you would have all fuel cell rows running tuned up to at least 7000 RPM anyway What gives ?

Going back to y earlier question, 'why are there different target AFRs in most maps you see,' I think I know. If you really want the bike to run at it's best, it has to operate under a variety of conditions. Those conditions depend on individual riding style. So the next step is to learn what AFR does for different zones of the fuel table.

Rook when you're first starting out and learning to use your software the job is to pick a AFR you like and work with it. If you can achieve your set goals anywhere and everywhere in the Throttle position/RPM windows you're ready to move on. It's very easy for a rider to look at his or her AFR gauge and see 13.5 The feeling of satisfaction when this goal has been achieved lets you know you have accomplished something.

Now if you start going advanced with Lean AFR's down low in the RPM window and rich up top of the window you study will be one hell of a mess. you will become discouraged and most likely give up. Easy just became real Hard.

I don't think your map was too far off from what I have Auto Tuned it to. I've looked at the fuel table for your map and the adjusted map and there are only a few cells with changes of 15 or 20. The area of the map that has largest and most changes is the low TP/low rpm cells. After the 15% column, there were not too many changes. There are almost no changes at all above 5000 rpm. I think the last run for the 40% column was probably up to about 9000 rpm but I didn't get any trims up there. I'm assuming the rest of your fuel table might not even require any adjustment so there may be no immediate need to tune at the highest speed for me. I will be curious to compare the base map to the fine tuned map to see if I can discern a difference.

Rook do you remember early on when I explained you Need to slow down the speed RPM climb and this would allow the 02 sensor to get a better sniff ?

Dyno-Jets Auto tune only reads ten times a second. This is slow for a fast rpm climbing bike. So with your bike not having trims up to 9000 RPM may be due to to fast a RPM climb caused in part by your 17/45 gearing. Look for a hill, do your runs in 6th. Make sense ?

The tutorial is pretty much written. There are not so many photos because this is mostly theory. I just have to go back over the process and make sure I have it down. I might leave the high speed tuning portion of the tutorial at "proceed at your own risk." Once you know what you're doing up to 40% throttle, I don't see that there will be much to add to instruction. Of course, this whole topic could go deeper and deeper. Maybe we'll go there someday.

Make sure to explain all that the user needs to do is pretend the bike is on a Dyno. this will get them started. No shifting.

* Last updated by: Romans on 8/18/2016 @ 7:43 PM *

This is also why the masses believe Auto Tune can't and does not work. For some there is no telling them different.

It does work. I can see my the AFR needle on my LCD-200 holding steady just below 13. This tells me I still have some tuning to do in the cruising range but it is not far off. I was just following directions without knowing about what i was doing at that point but it still worked.

Rook something amiss here. I would think you would have all fuel cell rows running tuned up to at least 7000 RPM anyway What gives ?

5th gear, 7000rpm, that's 100 mph even with my 45t sprocket. I tested this afternoon because that was the rpm I noticed on my tach as I whizzed past the sheriff SUV.

I'v been tuning each TP column from 1500 rpm to whatever rpm the max TP for said column will peak at. I'm guessing 59% throttle brought me up to about 9k and 130-140 mph...and I had to hold it there for a few seconds to be sure I was hitting the highest cell. A few seconds = a few thousand feet of road at that speed. Also a few seconds more that someone (especially someone like a police) will see me.

I think I can do the remaining TPs up to 7k. That's not too terribly long of a run if I can find another good spot because I'm understandibly hestant to do it where the same cop might see me.

Now if you start going advanced with Lean AFR's down low in the RPM window and rich up top of the window you study will be one hell of a mess. you will become discouraged and most likely give up. Easy just became real Hard.

Yeah, I know I'm not there yet. I can wait.

LOL The sheriffs visit school almost daily. One of them gave me $10 ticket for doing 90 last year then he saw me at school. Also, the lady sheriff has a kindergartener at school. She gave me a ride from the HS to elementary building last winter. There is a very, very good chance they know who is riding that bike but they are trying to not bust me. So i sorta think I better take the hint and cool it.

Rook do you remember early on when I explained you Need to slow down the speed RPM climb and this would allow the 02 sensor to get a better sniff ?...Look for a hill, do your runs in 6th. Make sense ?

Sure, I remember. I'll give 6th gear a shot and maybe even uphill if that seems safe enough. I may even try using less than max throttle for the column so the engine maxes out at a lower rpm where AT can linger to get a good sniff. I am definitely holding the engine at or near max TP for the column and peak rpm for more than a second so that I am sure I did in fact hit peak rpm. I do not recall any trims at peak rpm. Maybe at 0% and 2% TP but not after that. I'll look into it though. The AFR gauge should tell the tale. Also, I will be datalogging soon. If the target AFR in your map is 13.1ish at high rpm, I think AT is just telling me your map is working optimally with my bike in this range even at 600 feet higher elevation than you. ...but we'll have a look. You know me. I do everything BIG. Never halfway.

Make sure to explain all that the user needs to do is pretend the bike is on a Dyno. this will get them started. No shifting.

OH, did that. One gear, watch cell tracer to snap throttle to proper column, hold throttle roll to max TP for that column, DO NOT roll back off, hold steady is okay but never roll off. As long as cell tracer stays in the column and keeps climbing, I think the run is good. When max TP is reached and held and rpm levels off, LET GO of throttle. Do not touch throttle--at least do not reenter the TP column you just tuned or you just messed your trims up. It's all there Romes. The fuel dump stairway and everything. Tried to keep it short. Could have made it shorter since the tuning of each column is essentially the same process but there were a few situations I found unique to each TP.

Brings up the same question as before. How the hell did you tune those low rpm cells? In the tutorial I plan to suggest tuning in first gear below 3000 rpm and accept those trims. Then zero the target AFR for 3000 and below and tune the rest with 5th or 6th gear. That's what I did. Only thing that makes sense. I believe I am going to need to have another look at this since the LCD seems to indicate I'm rich at low rpm but no way would I try to do all those runs in 6th gear from anywhere below 3000 rpm. I don't really think 1500 rpm is good for the engine even in first gear but it probably pulls a little better with my 45 tooth than stock gearing would.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/14/2016 @ 9:58 PM *

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Brings up the same question as before. How the hell did you tune those low rpm cells?

Rook I will have to give you a call one night this week. I'm Not sure where we are this. I'm also not sure I understand. I thought you had it ?

I think I do have it. As you can see, there are cells at lower rpm than the fuel dump stairway. Those cells can be entered by cell tracer if you are willing to apply X% throttle at that low of an rpm. For example, I can open the throttle 2% at 1250 rpm. I can open the throttle 5% at 1750 rpm. Normally I don't but you have cells tuned at that low rpm so I gathered and applied trims. Could only do it in first gear. Now at 40% throttle, I believe your fuel table has adjustments starting at 1750 rpm! I can't tune that in any gear. Bike will surely protest vehemently. How did you do it?

Here's my fuel dump stairway and the resulting target AFR table I made.

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Romes will correct me, but my understanding is if you enter 0 on the cell, it uses the OEM fuel signal. You'd have to enter your written numbers in the 0 cells for it to take effect. I think you know this. Just confused why you'd have 0 in the cells on the map, and this shows what in the photo against your written numbers?

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Hub, that's his target AFR for the autotune, if it was the fuel map you would be correct (0 = stock fuel), in this case it just means the autotune won't try and change the fuel map in those cells.

Thanks, Night. So autotune wise, the numbers read Rook's writing, only we see it as a zero. So I save the map, then enter it as the running map, I've unplugged auto and all that. How close am I now?

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So autotune wise, the numbers read Rook's writing, only we see it as a zero.

The pic of the hand drawn diagram shows the trims I got from a complete target AFR table. NO zeroed out target AFRs, ALL cells had 13.1 in them at that time. The trim numbers you see are what it took to bring my AFR closer to 13.1 in those cells. The cells were tuned by running the engine in Neutral and slowly opening the throttle to 10%. This procedure is how the fuel dump zone is tuned. No load on engine, No decel, Forward throtle movement only = no exhaust reverb and no fuel dump. You tune this zone on the road and you will get false readings--you would be trying to tune for the fuel dump instead of the combustion gas.

AFTER the fuel dump zone is tuned on the stand, you don't want to tune it on the road. If you did, you would run into the problem just described. So you zero out your AFR table in the fuel dump zone. That way, Auto Tune will make no trims for those cells which should already be perfect from your tune in Neutral.

So you're looking at a drawing of my fuel dump zone corrections and a pic of what I did to my target AFR table after the fuel dump zone was tuned. You could leave the target AFR table complete and just manually zero out trims in the fuel dump zone when you road tune but zeroing out the target AFR is a lot easier.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/16/2016 @ 11:54 AM *

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Umm, now I'm thinking, N map autotuned? And now we save this map, run it on the other 6 gears? If say we have how many sets of gear maps for what pair of gears? Where is the auto for each gear maps or say they use 4th gear to tune the map, why not stay in 4th to run the auto? You'd just have to find an open space and act the dyno run.

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/16/2016 @ 8:00 PM *

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Umm, now I'm thinking, N map autotuned? And now we save this map, run it on the other 6 gears?

yep. The fuel dump zone is tuned with the bike in N so the ECU is on the stock N map. You would think the stock N map would be much different than the mapping for other gears, wouldn't you? I thought the same but having no knowledge at all in this matter, I followed what Romes said to do and it appears it did do a fairly good job of bringing the bike to the target AFR I was after. The AFR is just under 13 (a bit rich) in the middle fuel dump zone. The upper fuel dump zone is close to perfect if not dead on. I didn't get it perfect the first time around but it is very close so apparently the ECU's N map is not all that different from the in gear maps.

Where is the auto for each gear maps or say they use 4th gear to tune the map, why not stay in 4th to run the auto? You'd just have to find an open space and act the dyno run.

I agree, if you want an absolutely perfect map, you probably have to tune/gear and you can do this with AT if you want. Romans has told me the difference between a single map and per gear mapping is not worth bothering over. I'm sure I will try it someday though.

I don't see why you couldn't use any gear provided the rpm is rising slow enough for AT to get at least one sample in each cell. Obviously you will get the fueling perfect in fewer runs if you use 6th gear where rpm rises slowest. The problem is nobody is going to whack the throttle in any gear if the engine is not turning at least 3000 rpm. That is why I used first gear to tune my low rpm cells. If the cells were not zeroed out because of the fuel dump zone, I collected trims as low as 1500 rpm using first gear. That worked up to 20% but it is very stressful on the motor at larger TPs than 16 or 17%. All the more so in 6th gear.

Please tell how you accomplished that low rpm tuning, Romans. Surely you were not opening the throttle to large TPs under 3000 rpm in 6th gear.

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Umm, now I'm thinking, N map autotuned? And now we save this map, run it on the other 6 gears? If say we have how many sets of gear maps for what pair of gears? Where is the auto for each gear maps or say they use 4th gear to tune the map, why not stay in 4th to run the auto? You'd just have to find an open space and act the dyno run.

and then i'm going to throw a TRE into all this.

you guys make my head hurt thinking about all these possible resolutions and absolutes of mapping

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/17/2016 @ 6:18 AM *

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When it gets to the point that there's no discernible difference, that's the point for me to stop. I might be at that point already. I have not put the base map back in but when i do, if it feels the same as my refined map, then I'm done. My trims were not that big so this may well be the case. When I go to NOS, There will definitely be a real need to adjust the map.

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Hey Rook,

Do you have a TRE installed? I can't speak for every TRE out there, but the one I have "tricks" the ECU into running a non-gear map (aka, non-emissions map) for all gears. So in my case I only have 1 ECU map that I need to tune.

You're AFR gauge will give you an idea if the differences between gear map is enough to cause concern, but the reality is with the technology available today engine fueling is not an exercise in precision but at best a "close enough". I'm sure there any many that would disagree with that statement and I could go on for hours to prove my point but the reality is there are far too many variables to get everything absolutely perfect, a degree of compromise is required to get "close enough" to a powerful and reliable engine.

I think Badzx14r said it best "you guys make my head hurt thinking about all these possible resolutions and absolutes of mapping" :)

but the one I have "tricks" the ECU into running a non-gear map (aka, non-emissions map) for all gears.

N or 6, depending on which wire. I toggled N = No AFR change. I toggled 6 = No AFR change, but ignition yes.

with the technology available today engine fueling is not an exercise in precision but at best a "close enough".

Formula means precision. It's a number in the absolute.

I'm sure there any many that would disagree with that statement and I could go on for hours to prove my point

I've got the hours... you don't want to start in wit me on the subject. I'll most likely checkmate your theories of said abstract written.

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Nope, no TRE on my bike Nightmare. Yours must be the one that locks the ECU fueling to the N map. That sounds like a great solution to map/gear in the ECU but your gear indicator is locked in N also, right? I would be glad to use a Heal-Tech gear indicator but since I have the stock one. Might as well keep it if I can. I have not had the opportunity to view datalogs of my AFR/gear so I do not yet know for certain how my AFR is being impacted by the ECU /gear mapping. I have not seen any inconsistency in AFR/gear on my AFR gauge but I have not really carefully compared either.

N or 6, depending on which wire. I toggled N = No AFR change. I toggled 6 = No AFR change, but ignition yes.

Ignition Module is my next step.

I think Badzx14r said it best "you guys make my head hurt thinking about all these possible resolutions and absolutes of mapping" :)

+1 You have to have a solid fundamental idea of how the tuning equipment interacts with the ECU but after that, it's all minutia. If the AFR is consistently close to where it should be, why bother with it?

Formula means precision. It's a number in the absolute.

You have to remember the "same day, same dyno" adage. None of them are the same under all conditions.

I'm sure there any many that would disagree with that statement and I could go on for hours to prove my point

I've got the hours... you don't want to start in wit me on the subject. I'll most likely checkmate your theories of said abstract written.

elevation, ambient temp, engine temp, humidity, where you bought the gas... The bike can't self adjust for all of that. Dyno results show it.

About the mysterious +/-1 trim I was getting in the highest rpm cell where the bike cannot even rev to, Dj replied as follows:
Your PC5 unit uses the fuel injector pulse as its source for the RPM signal. If/when you roll into the throttle quickly, you might trigger some accelerator pump fueling in the stock ECU; and when this happens the stock injector pulse can fire multiple times within a single cam revolution, which subsequently causes the PC5 to very briefly see a high spike in the RPM signal.

If it sees the RPM go higher than the highest RPM cell available in the Fuel table and Auto-tune tables, it will use the highest RPM cell available in the table.

...so the ECU may have its own excel pump feature and that makes it appear to AT that the engine is running at the current rpm x how ever many squirts of fuel are shot/intake stroke. How then do you get a trim in the cell where the actual rpm was? ...or do you? Minutia. If there is a cell or two with really poor AFR, it will show in the datalogs and I can fix it manually.

Aftermarket ECU discussion starts below
vvvvv

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/22/2016 @ 8:41 PM *

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elevation, ambient temp, engine temp, humidity, where you bought the gas... The bike can't self adjust for all of that. Dyno results show it

the hell you say you guys need to buy good stuff

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AFTER the fuel dump zone is tuned on the stand, you don't want to tune it on the road. If you did, you would run into the problem just described. So you zero out your AFR table in the fuel dump zone. That way, Auto Tune will make no trims for those cells which should already be perfect from your tune in Neutral.

Please tell how you accomplished that low rpm tuning, Romans. Surely you were not opening the throttle to large TPs under 3000 rpm in 6th gear.

Yes, stab throttle in a high gear, lug the motor. Stare at your AFR gauge and do manual edits when needed. When all is working as it should bike will behave smoothly. Don't be afraid to pull or add fuel to get your number.

I agree, if you want an absolutely perfect map, you probably have to tune/gear and you can do this with AT if you want. Romans has told me the difference between a single map and per gear mapping is not worth bothering over. I'm sure I will try it someday though.

Doesn't mean it's not worth playing with. But as you guys move forward in your tuning you will see it becomes a waste of time. This will become more evident when you start scaling you AFR table.

and then i'm going to throw a TRE into all this.
you guys make my head hurt thinking about all these possible resolutions and absolutes of mapping

TRE in theory may confuse things a bit for some. Becomes much easier to understand once you see inside the ECU and understand that Kawi only used secondary throttle plate Maps per gear and the timing portion only comes into play when you consider the 3D tuning effect. More on that later.

I think Badzx14r said it best "you guys make my head hurt thinking about all these possible resolutions and absolutes of mapping" :)

If the goal stays "keep it simple", the focus remains, make the bike run the desired AFR no one's head should hurt. If we get into theory we will all be lost.

Lost in theory? Doubt it. If you think about that engine dyno and the holly setup, there was no trans involved and those are computer controlled as well. You're screwed no matter what, the subs control ignition curves then, yes? Screwed in N, screwed in hacked N, screwed in sub ign curves. How close am I?

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TRE in theory may confuse things a bit for some. Becomes much easier to understand once you see inside the ECU and understand that Kawi only used secondary throttle plate Maps per gear and the timing portion only comes into play when you consider the 3D tuning effect. More on that later.

see i'm smarter than the average white boy . the kawi ECU is junk and very limited. and instead of buying a PCV then a autotune .then a datalogger and all other goodies to run a bike faster which ends up costing $1,000.00's of dollars . i sell that sucker on ebay and buy a true aftermarket ECU that does it all with a closed loop system .

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. If you think about that engine dyno and the holly setup, there was no trans involved and those are computer controlled as well. You're screwed no matter what, the subs control ignition curves then, yes? Screwed in N, screwed in hacked N, screwed in sub ign curves. How close am I?

you're not close at all being your ignition curve controlled sub throttle kawi ECU is in the trash can and your new holley ECU is now controlling ignition curve via rpm and fuel duty cycle

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/19/2016 @ 1:42 PM *

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Lost in theory? Doubt it. If you think about that engine dyno and the holly setup, there was no trans involved and those are computer controlled as well. You're screwed no matter what, the subs control ignition curves then, yes? Screwed in N, screwed in hacked N, screwed in sub ign curves. How close am I?

you're not close at all being your ignition curve controlled sub throttle kawi ECU is in the trash can and your new holley ECU is now controlling ignition curve via rpm and fuel duty cycle

"Holley is now controlling the ignition curve via RPM and fuel duty cycle"

hmmmm, now I have played with the timing in all gens of the ZX14. I know what I like, I also know what is sweet but if you lug that motor,,,,All Bad.

Now in the Gen 1 the plates are grouped by gear, which is what makes that bikes bottom end run like shit. Always has always will.(Hell for us turbo Guys).

Now In the Gen 2 Kawi gave us our bottom end timing back but introduced a safety mode in it's place. (always something).

Ok, lets say I rip it all out and go full Holley setup, bike still has no knock sensor, bike is still incapable of learning timing in the closed loop. So,,,, still, a man is involved in telling you what works,,,,, fuel , air spark, the drama continues. More of the same wallet grab. Better but still not great.

Sad to say but even my snowmobile has a factory knock sensor. I run 320 hp when I get bad gas Dash lights up flashing starts, timing pulled, world is good. I'm safe.

All this is side tracking how simple the bike is to tune. If we Concentrate on the AFR all will fall into place nicely. Promise