The 0% collumn includes 0 and 1% throttle and it can occupy the cells from 1250 to 2000 rpm. I doubt I ever operate the bike in this area of the fuel table but I see no reason to not tune it. I'm planning to run the bike uphill in first gear in an effort to keep the throttle in one cell at a time (all three of them).

Would like to see the results. I never did 0 column except for idle cells.

On a side note I notice your idling is very low. Did you set it up like that or is it a result of the tuning?

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I set the idle to 1000 rpm according to the rpm display of the PCV software. That was so cell tracer would not flutter between 1000 and 1250 at idle. I don't know if that matters since the the last samples the O2 sensor will take at idle happen right at the end of the run. As you can hear and see, the idle drops another 100 rpm after the 6500 rpm runs. It picks back up after a couple seconds.

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I turned the rpm back up to 1100. The 0~1% column was giving no more trims so that's done. Now I have done a few runs at 2~4% throttle and that is probably finished after my last run. These low speed throttle positions are much easier to do up a small long hill in 1st gear.

One thing that struck me as odd was that I was getting trims in the 0% column but it was in the 1500 rpm range and higher where 0~1% will not pull the engine. Apparently those trims were made when I let go of the throttle and the engine was decelerating. I zeroed those trims out since I was focussed on the 2% column but I suppose it is also important to tune for 0% TP deceleration.

Come to think of it, deceleration is what is happening below the stairway, isn't it? I'm never going to hit that "under the stairs zone unless I hit peak rpm at each TP and tune while decelerating.

I wonder if I should take care of deceleration tuning now or wait until I have all of the acceleration tuning done.

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Would like to see the results. I never did 0 column except for idle cells.

I did not keep a record of what cells were touched by AT in the 0% column when I ran the bike under load but now that I think about it, it would probably be the same cells as the tune in neutral. I know i did see a couple trims in the road tuning 0% column though. Trims would not be possible where I zeroed the target AFR. The trims may have been from deceleration or perhaps I managed to get the bike a cell higher accelerating under load than I did in N.

I am not observing so closely now. Just run it and if nothing looks alarming, accept all trims in the TP I'm tuning. I'm trying not to make this TOO complicated now because I already know it will become more complicated as I learn more. For example, why do professional tuners use different target AFRs in their maps? I think I already know the answer but that is getting way ahead of myself.

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Come to think of it, deceleration is what is happening below the stairway, isn't it? I'm never going to hit that "under the stairs zone unless I hit peak rpm at each TP and tune while decelerating.
I wonder if I should take care of deceleration tuning now or wait until I have all of the acceleration tuning done.

I have seen some guys tune in this area for decel pop, but cant imagine any other reason that would make any sense in terms of bike performance etc.

why do professional tuners use different target AFR's in their maps? I think I already know the answer but that is getting way ahead of myself.

I have asked the same question, only to get various different answers (and BS). I think some tuners/dealers simply take whats there from Dynojet and put those in. Which is not a bad thing as I believe DJ have put in a fair amount of work into those maps. Chris from Dynojet is a very helpful and he did explain some of the science behind their maps to me some time back. A thing to note is that these maps are made obviously at their conditions. (altitude, petrol, humidity etc) As is any map that is made.
The best for me is to use a map from a source that I trust and has been tried and tested.
(Unfortunately not many are willing to share their maps)

I believe you have to start somewhere and then start tuning for your specific bike. As Romans mentioned earlier you can start changing AFR numbers and use whats best for your bike depending on what you want to achieve. power, speed, smoothness etc. This is where the Dyno I suppose helps with showing you the affect your changes have made.

The other question I have is what are the "safest" parameters on a normally aspirated ZX14/R. i.e. minimum rich and max lean AFR before you start affecting the life of your engine. You might think your bike is running shit hot but only to find down the line you were running too lean and you end up with a hole in the piston, and on the other side you fowl the spark plugs.
(Ive seen the table in previous posts on AFR but those are general I was hoping that someone has some advice/experience to share specific to our bikes.)

* Last updated by: untamed on 7/31/2016 @ 11:24 PM *

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I have seen some guys tune in this area for decel pop, but cant imagine any other reason that would make any sense in terms of bike performance etc.

I guess. You're just letting the bike roll against the engine at these TPs so no need to tune as long as the AFR is reasonable. Trims will be produced for the 0% column on every run since you cut to 0% TP. I see no reason to not accept those trims. 0% TP deceleration is probably used much more than partial throttle deceleration anyway.

The other question I have is what are the "safest" parameters on a normally aspirated ZX14/R. i.e. minimum rich and max lean AFR before you start affecting the life of your engine.

Would be good to know. I'm sure some info is out there at least telling at which AFR did engine damage instantly occur. I haven't heard much on this though. I'm guessing people don't push the window much.

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As I suspected, there is no reason to make trims for accelerating at 0% throttle. Those cells were all tuned in N. You will not get the rpm above 1750 at 0~1% throttle.

However, there are a few cells to tune in the 2% TP column at very low rpm. The 2% column actually includes 2, 3, and 4% throttle.

Also, cutting the throttle after reaching 4% TP did give me +20% trims at 3000~2000 rpm. I accepted and the next run the trims were much smaller. I checked AFR on decelerations and it is in the 16s at some points. I will have to look at whether or not my +20% trims changed that at 3000~2000 rpm.

maybe AFR goes lean on decel just because you cut fuel? No unburned fuel coming out leaves room for more O2? I don't know if its good to tune for decel or not.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/1/2016 @ 10:36 AM *

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I don't know if its good to tune for decel or not

like tuning reverse on a car

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It's a conundrum. The engine is not making power at decel, it's actually doing the opposite. The engine is still firing though so there must be some kind of fueling requirements for deceleration. The base map I have has numbers up to about 3000rpm in the 0% column. I will have to ask Dj if tuning for decel is something that should be done or not.

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Still tuning in first gear from about 1100 rpm for 5% column. I plan to do the same for the lowest cells of the 10% column but I will have to start leaving the lowest cells of higher TP untuned. I can't see whacking the throttle to 20% or higher at that low of an rpm in any gear. No reason to tune there if I would never do it.

Tuning the 5% column tonight and getting only small trims for acceleration. Long 0% decel from 6500 rpm. Got a few small trims in the 0% column at higher rpm. The trims in the 3000~2000 rpm zone of the 0% column continue to tell me to pour 17~20% more fuel in these cells. Checking AFR, this zone is very lean at around 16 AFR. I have not accepted trims for the 0% 3000-2000 zone because those cells are already adding 17-28% from the trims i did accept earlier.

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New thought:

Kaw must have programmed the fueling real lean at 0% throttle 2000 to 3000 rpm for some purpose. Everyone who rides on the street decelerates at 0 throttle from 3000 rpm all the time. Maybe kaw tuned this area lean to avoid backfire? Maybe the low rpm 0% throttle is lean to avoid backfire if the bike has trouble starting? The OEM exhaust might not give such a lean AFR. We'll see what Dj has to say about it. I already know they do not recomend tuning the 0% column....that's prolly what they will say.

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Maybe the low rpm 0% throttle is lean to avoid backfire

I always understood that you add fuel in the 0% column to avoid backfire. Evidence is there on some of the DJ maps.

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Adjusting the 0% throttle above idle is only used to get rid of the deceleration backfiring period. In many vehicles that range is intentionally lean in order to increase the temperature of the exhaust gases to burn off different things stuck in the catalytic converter.

Perhaps not the best practice but what I have done is set my 0% throttle column from 3500RPM+ to -100% (no fuel at all). This works really well (no backfire, smooth transition back onto the throttle for how I ride, no stalls, etc). My only concern is when you are pushing the bike hard and hit 9 or 10,000 RPM then close the throttle, having the engine go from hot (high load) to cold (no fuel), but honestly I'm not even sure there is a big temperature difference in the 5-10 seconds the fuel would be shut off for.

The 2% throttle is very important as it dictates your on/off throttle transition and low speed cruising. If your chain is properly adjusted and you find the bike to jerk a lot when going back on the throttle, try adjusting the 2% column in the problem RPM range (richer or leaner).

Adjusting the 0% throttle above idle is only used to get rid of the deceleration backfiring period. In many vehicles that range is intentionally lean in order to increase the temperature of the exhaust gases to burn off different things stuck in the catalytic converter.

That's pretty much what Dj told me but they don't even recommend adjusting fueling for idle.

Dj:
It is unadvisable to Auto-tune the deceleration range of the map file. The Target AFR table should have a value of zero (0) from top to bottom in the 0% TP column.

You might manually add or subtract fuel globally from 1750 RPM to redline in the 0% TP column to reduce or stop any deceleration popping that you might be experiencing, but otherwise it is a waste of time adjusting every cell in the 0% TP column individually or even attempting to Auto-tune under deceleration.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Perhaps not the best practice but what I have done is set my 0% throttle column from 3500RPM+ to -100% (no fuel at all). This works really well (no backfire, smooth transition back onto the throttle for how I ride, no stalls, etc).

No fuel for deceleration! WOW. Too daring for me at this point but I might try it someday to stop the hiccup at 2% throttle in second gear.

I think what I'm going to do is leave the stairway in the 0% column tuned as Romans suggests. I will also probably just leave what I have tuned up to 6500 rpm in the 0% column for now. I will continue to watch AFR and trims in the 0% column just for curiosities sake. If the trims are small like they have been I will accept. I can always zero them later. I'll have to talk to Romans about this part of the map. I'm pretty sure he does have a few cells above 1750 tuned in the 0% column. As for tuning decelleration at other TPs, I'm not going to bother with it now if ever.

I always understood that you add fuel in the 0% column to avoid backfire. Evidence is there on some of the DJ maps.

Counterintuitive but may be so. I'm putting this on the back burner and focussing on tuning the cells I use for power.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/2/2016 @ 5:08 PM *

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Finished off the 5% column today and worked pretty much on the 10%. At 10% throttle, I'm now breaking the speed limit.

I don't want to tune in first gear anymore because the revs get too high. It's also difficult to accurately open the throttle 10~14% starting at low rpm. Even if I hold it steady at 11%, the throttle % indicated will go out of range as the rpm increases. It's like 10% throttle at low rpm is different than 10% throttle at higher rpm. It is very difficult to hold the throttle between 10 and 14% at low rpm in second gear and the bike doesn't like that anyway. What I did to compromise was to make trims at 1500-4000rpm /10% throttle in first gear and then do 4000 to 7000rpm runs for 10% throttle. Seemed to work ok. I had one 20% trim but then all single digits. Still have some 3,4 and 5s but i have to move on. I'm sure I will be coming back and re-refining all of this when I'm done.

Another technique I'm using is to 0 all the columns except for the one I am working on. This saves the step of editing out all unwanted trims before accepting the trims for the column I'm working on. Every second counts when you're sitting on the side of the road playing with the laptop with the bike running. This is not a quick process. You not only have to carefully do the runs, then you have to take the bike out on the road and ride it at a reasonable speed in high gear to cool it off. The map switch would be ideal for this situation. Switch on to tune, switch off to deactivate Auto Tune.

I can't see doing the 15% runs back to back around here. I'll have to go somewhere desolate to chance doing that.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/2/2016 @ 5:02 PM *

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What I learnt from Romans is that the higher the gear the longer the sampling is in the specific cells. What sampling rate have you set in the autotune?

Zeroing out the other column is exactly how I do it. To try and speed up the process, I loaded maps onto my laptop with the zero columns already done. So on the road I did my run in that specific column, accepted trims and when finished, saved that map and then loaded the next map with the next column. Afterwards I would combine them all together with my low throttle runs for a complete map. Might be a long way of doing it but, as you say it keeps my numbers from being affected by decel.

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+1 to tuning in higher gears, it's easier to get to and hold the desired throttle position since you have more time to do that.

+1 to tuning in higher gears, it's easier to get to and hold the desired throttle position since you have more time to do that.

What I learnt from Romans is that the higher the gear the longer the sampling is in the specific cells.

Yes, makes sense if that is indeed how auto tune works....I mean if it takes an average of all readings made in a given cell, it would be best to stay in that cell as long as possible without backing out of the throttle. If Autotune just gives you the last reading it took in the cell, I don't see that it matters how long you're in the cell. I will ask Dj that one.

I did have good luck tuning the 15% column using 5th gear tonight. It was mostly done after 2 runs. 100 mph for 15% throttle This is going to get interesting. 4250 and 4500rpm kept coming back with +4 run after run, I don't understand why it would keep giving me a +4 trim 3 times....why not one +12 trim if that cell is that lean? I'm quite sure I remembered to click Send Table after accepting (you can use Send Map or Send table---trims go to map the same either way).

What sampling rate have you set in the autotune?

Is there a setting for #x/second Auto Tune samples? I don't think I saw that. If you mean the Max%/Min%, I have both at 20. I've only gotten a couple trims of +/-20 so far and only on the first run. Second run is always mostly 1 and 2 with a few other numbers usually 7 or lower.

Zeroing out the other column is exactly how I do it. To try and speed up the process

Yeah, I zeroed all target AFRs except the column I'm working on. You don't have to review the whole table for unwanted trims and you don't have to delete unwanted trims either. Much faster.

+1 to tuning in higher gears, it's easier to get to and hold the desired throttle position since you have more time to do that.

Definitely. I tried that today and it is so much easier because you have time to watch what is happening on the laptop. Tuning in first gear, no way is there time to watch both the cell tracer and that throttle % dispaly whicj=h is pretty important because we have multiple TPs for most columns. The 15% column includes 15, 16, 17, 18 and 19%. You don't want to let go of the throttle until you hit 19% at peak rpm for that TP. The rpm climbs so high so fast in first gear, there's no way you're going to monitor all the info. Unless you have an awful lot of practice, it's a little "hit and miss". The only way I can see tuning the lowest cells is to use first gear though. I really don't like whacking the throttle to 15% at 1500 rpm in any gear but I would ONLY consider that in first and I have a 45 tooth rear sprocket which helps avoid lugging the engine. Still a bit harsh on chain and sprockets. I'm not at all sure it is very beneficial to tune below 2500 rpm but those cells are tuned in my base map so I want to refine them.

I very much apppreciate you guys sticking with me through this. I'm getting a lot of good advice. LOL I know my posts are long and must be hard to read all that.

One thought I had about why the 0% collumn keeps giving me trims to add fuel. Maybe because there is NONE??? Throttle's shut, no fuel getting burned except what is needed to keep the engine running. You get some lean AFRs way low in the rpm at full decel because whatever fuel was there got burned up in the pipe??? IDK. I'm putting the 0% column back to the base map numbers except for the stairway cells.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/3/2016 @ 7:54 PM *

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The engine is still firing though so there must be some kind of fueling requirements for deceleration.

somebody told me long ago
when you shut them thingies call throttle blades all air stops flowing into the cylinders.

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/3/2016 @ 10:17 PM *

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You know we have bypass valves, 1bad. The engine needs some air to keep running at 0 throttle. Also, I suspect 0 throttle is really like the plates are open a crack. Even if closed completely, theres still a small gap all around the plate. Anyways, IDT we can get reliable AFRs on 0 throttle deceleration--the engine isn't pushing the flow of exhaust and there is hardly any fuel getting burned....it's like idling at 6000 rpm....I wonder if Kaw even has those cells mapped?

1bad, you got me thinking. Here’s the scenario: The engine is running at 8000 rpm blowing out combustion gasses at a corresponding rate and those gasses are indicating whatever AFR…lets assume normal. Then you cut the throttle to 0. The engine keeps turning, the intake valves open and close, the exhaust valves do the same. The engine sucks air in and pushes out whatever is in it but it’s pushing mostly air because it isn’t burning much fuel. It’s not programmed to be fed much fuel for decel but it’s pushing lots of air because it’s turning fast. This air mixes with the exhaust left in the pipe from the recent acceleration. The atmosphere in the pipe gets leaner and leaner as the decel progresses. You see progressively larger + trims as the rpm decreases. When you get close to idle and flow starts to normalize, the AFR is the leanest and that is probably because of the lag the AFR gauge has. Your seeing the AFR from 2 seconds ago. The engine is powered by the bike’s inertia when decelerating. Fuel has little to do with it, it’s just there so the engine runs when decel is done. It’s basically idling when decelerating. No reason to tune unless there is rough running. Based on this, Id say there’s no big danger of running dangerously lean at 0 throttle decel because the plates are restricting the air to the minimum in the first place and there’s barely any fuel to make much heat either. It’s mostly fresh air vigorously blowing through. Maybe it does run lean but it's like running lean at idle--not much chance of causing damage since the burning is week.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/4/2016 @ 2:12 AM *

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Hard cut = 18a
Soft cut = 16.5a

When the throttle is @ WOT, look at the TPS position for demand. 0 to 9 = 10. So 10 is the demand, 0 is closed throttle.

When the engine is @ 0 or fully closed throttle, the injectors are on the engine side of the throttle plate, not on the opposite side of the throttle plate. So fuel enters on a closed throttle.

0-throttle + 0-demand = 18a, I'm going to cut fuel so the idle returns. Idle returns it's @ 14.7 or stoich in open loop. A certain hack will bring the cut to a richer 16.5a and no pop out the exhaust so much = Close PAIR.

The fueling feeds in a constant microsecond, millisecond, ect., and never shuts off fuel= EVER! So, lean it goes and burns pistons, as the fuel is shut off? Nope. You just see the AFR in a lag between execution and time to when it reaches the AFR meter. The number on lift is set at about 18a to 22a in the lean setting. PAIR off, that fuel is 16.5a and is still showing a fuel burn.

Throttle position + RPM = Fuel trim delivery by all telemetry ~ no codes.
Coded + RPM = Fuel delivery in 'Method' ~ No TPS sensor connected.
RPM + Method = Fuel deliver still in binary calc = Still in a 14.7 stoich setting.
14.7 psi = Always closes at this pressure no matter rpm. The AFR is Air(14.7) to Fuel(18a) = Lift trim = 0 throttle input. So the TPS being a rheostat has many analog numbers entering up to WOT. The bike's rpm still has to move one 360 at a time to gain 1 rpm at a time in a linear state.

123456789 = 10 is WOT. 10-987654321 is = Lift. It still has to incrementally fuel each rpm on the slow down of each fire, or pure oxy would create heat (kinetic) and not be able to cool it slightly with 18-22a? She burns up.

Conclusion:
The crank is in a 4-storke move as long as that back wheel is propelling you down the road.
The crank is in a constant suck with throttle open or closed. The air ratio is a constant 14.7 of pressure closing.
The crank is in a constant rpm change but in a linear up/down movement. Every stroke is fed a fuel, does not shut off, nor can you shut off that void as long as that valve keeps closing on the Penultimate number.
The crank is in a certain rpm position. That rpm is in a lift/wot/sustained environment. So fuel is a constant.
The crank is sending in a fuel signal to match crank speed. The method takes that data of speed and calc's off of rpm rotational speed, no TPS in play = Method.
So be it OE or Backup, the ratio is displayed on the AFR meter as a constant fuel metering to both cool the engine and have the transition of fuel flowing in an uninterrupted event. If fuel was cut, you'd nosedive, have the bike sit up; no power to push forward... hit the kill switch to see what I mean, when someone says no fuel on lift.

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There's fuel, there's air, no reason to tune for power, if the engine's smooth on deceleration, there's nothing wrong. If Nightmare adjusts his 0% decel fueling to -100, there must be a minimal flow of fuel that can't be shut off by the fuel table. I'm off somewhere to tune. little spooked. Saw a Sheriff on a road I was hoping to use for high speed runs last night.

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if it takes an average of all readings made in a given cell, it would be best to stay in that cell as long as possible without backing out of the throttle.

This is how the autotune works, it takes an average of all of the samples to make the adjustment.

kept coming back with +4 run after run, I don't understand why it would keep giving me a +4 trim 3 times....why not one +12 trim if that cell is that lean

I agree with you, I would expect it to have given you a +12 or something along those lines if that cell was that lean. So I'm purely guessing here, but try adjusting the cells before that range (4,000RPM) and maybe after. Although you stated the 15% TP column is for throttle positions 15-19% I'm not personally 100% sure that something like 17-19% TP isn't actually averaging the fuel map of the 15% & 20% column of the same RPM range. I don't have any evidence to support that theory however.

One thought I had about why the 0% collumn keeps giving me trims to add fuel. Maybe because there is NONE??? Throttle's shut, no fuel getting burned except what is needed to keep the engine running. You get some lean AFRs way low in the rpm at full decel because whatever fuel was there got burned up in the pipe??? IDK. I'm putting the 0% column back to the base map numbers except for the stairway cells.

The ECU fuel map runs lean in 0% throttle range above idle to cook off crap in the cat. As you suggested, set everything back to the base map for the 0% column and don't have the autotune try and tune that column, you'll only get garbage data.

This is because as you stated, there is still exhaust gas in the pipe from when you were on the throttle and with the slight lag of the O2 sensor/autotune the readings are useless. If you get backfires, add fuel to the column but otherwise don't worry about it.

You know we have bypass valves, 1bad. The engine needs some air to keep running at 0 throttle. Also, I suspect 0 throttle is really like the plates are open a crack. Even if closed completely, theres still a small gap all around the plate.

This is also correct, if no air was getting to the engine our bike would simply stall soon after pulling the clutch with the throttle closed. Follow the throttle adjustment screw, it actually slightly opens/closes the throttle plates.

If fuel was cut, you'd nosedive, have the bike sit up; no power to push forward... hit the kill switch to see what I mean, when someone says no fuel on lift.

Cutting the fuel won't cause the bike to nose dive, previously with my fuel map I could feel when I transitioned from the -100% fuel to a cell that had fuel. I could feel the bike slowing down less after the transition but it was by no means dramatic and I don't think anyone observing me would see any visible changes.

The biggest "issue" with completely removing fuel in the 0% TP column is the on/off throttle response, if I set the -100% fuel too low (ie, 2,000RPM) and I went back on the throttle at 3,000RPM there would be an abrupt increase in power so the bike would feel jerky. I now cut fuel to something like 3,500RPM or somewhere slightly above where I would normally be back on the throttle and its nice and smooth.

If Nightmare adjusts his 0% decel fueling to -100, there must be a minimal flow of fuel that can't be shut off by the fuel table

Nope, it shuts all of the fuel off, watching the AFR gauge on my LCD it'll go from 14.7 to something like 650+ (all air, no exhaust)