Here's what i am wondering: If the 20% column in the fuel table is the fuel adjustment for TP 20-39%, how accurate is Auto Tune (or fuel tables for that matter)? I would think the fuel adjustment to hit the target AFR for 20% is going to be different than the fuel adjustment to hit the target AFR for 39%.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/8/2016 @ 7:16 PM *

^^No but I looked at the speedo a couple seconds after letting the throttle go and it was still past a hundred so I'm guessing 120 at least. 8000 rpm, 5th gear, that's getting close to the tippy top. The issue is not so much the speed but the amount of time and distance required to reach peak rpm for given throttle position. I'm not sure a quarter mile from a dead stop is quite enough. 

most zx14's run 120mph in the 1/8 mile from a dead stop. also speedometers are way off on mph.

most zx14's run 120mph in the 1/8 mile from a dead stop.

also speedometers are way off on mph.

Here's what i am wondering: If the 20% column in the fuel table is the fuel adjustment for TP 20-39%, how accurate is Auto Tune (or fuel tables for that matter)? I would think the fuel adjustment to hit the target AFR for 20% is going to be different than the fuel adjustment to hit the target AFR for 39%.

Technically yes, the fueling requirement at 20% TP is different than 39% TP and I would expect that if you did the same run you at 20% you will probably get trims. A key point is that your fuel map is really an engine load map, different engine loads have different fuel requirements.

I have managed to tune the majority of my map but I only bothered to tune the lower 1/2 of the RPM range since there are massive legal and safety concerns, doing 50+km/hr over the speed limit here is an automatic impound, suspended license and I've heard of a motorcyclist getting a $10,000 fine... so a $200-$400 dyno session looks pretty cheap from that perspective. The other reason I am not planning on tuning the higher RPM range is the autotune does a pretty decent job of adjusting that area of the table for me during my everyday riding.

Lastly, regarding going through a tank/day, although you're using more fuel trying to tune your AFR is really rich for cruising and you won't see any benefit while cruising. I've set my target AFR in the "cruising range" (varies on where you ride, etc, but generally 2,500-4,500 RPM, 5% to 15% TP) to 14.7 but after seeing some other info in this thread it looks like you could even go leaner than that. Use a lower AFR for high engine load areas (higher RPM and TP)

I know it

no you don't know it

let me save you at lot of griff . buy a pod 300!!!! the auto tune and pcv feeds the pod300 info on AFR and its instant info .. no holding cell tracer shit.

A key point is that your fuel map is really an engine load map, different engine loads have different fuel requirements.

I've set my target AFR in the "cruising range" (varies on where you ride, etc, but generally 2,500-4,500 RPM, 5% to 15% TP) to 14.7 but after seeing some other info in this thread it looks like you could even go leaner than that. Use a lower AFR for high engine load areas (higher RPM and TP)

The other reason I am not planning on tuning the higher RPM range is the autotune does a pretty decent job of adjusting that area of the table for me during my everyday riding.

no you don't know it

let me save you at lot of griff . buy a pod 300!!!! the auto tune and pcv feeds the pod300 info on AFR and its instant info .. no holding cell tracer shit.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/9/2016 @ 7:22 PM *

Got an email reply to my question about why you accept trims and the fuel number sometimes changes one more or one less than the trim for that cell.

Me: I notice that the trims do not always reflect the exact amount of change as they actually cause in the fuel table. Some trims result in a sum or difference that is +/-1. For example, a -3 trim may actually end up subtracting 4% from the cell it is adjusting in the fuel table. A 7 trim may add only 6. Is this because Auto Tune actually makes trims in decimals which it rounds up or down to whole numbers for easy viewing in the tables?

Dj: The arithmetic involved isn’t a simple summation of the fuel table cell value + the trim value. The values are actually factored in, as in a multiplication function.

For example, if the stock fuel quantity were say a 100 “units” of fuel and the Fuel table cell value were adding 40% more (i.e. 40 units), than the new fuel quantity would be 140 units. If Auto-tune subtracts 3% of that, it would be subtracting 4. (140 x .03 = 4.2, 140 - 4.2 = 135.8 rounded -> 136). So the fuel table cell value in the map would go from being a 40 to a 36 after accepting a trim of -3, rather than a 37.

In short, Auto Tune adds or subtracts a percentage of the fuel number that is currently in the fuel table. Percentages work out evenly if the fuel number is 100. If the fuel number is not currently 100, a percentage of the fuel number will be somewhat more or less than the face value of the percentage. I would expect you would see larger discrepancies if you were accepting large trims.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/10/2016 @ 5:56 AM *

+1 on the POD 300, I can see whilst I'm riding what my AFR is at specific rpm. Not sure what the LCD200 shows. It makes for easier data logging and then if you want you can log those numbers between the columns in each cell.
It's a great tool to confirm what the trims are suggesting. It also helps to see what the affects are of the trims I have accepted straight away.
Also when my O2 sensor stuffed out I could see straight away that something was wrong, avoiding me riding the bike and causing any damage.
I'm not specifically punting DJ, but it was such an easy installation and really easy to use. Especially for somoene starting out with the tuning procedure as it takes a lot of the guess work out of it.

For example, if the stock fuel quantity were say a 100 “units” of fuel and the Fuel table cell value were adding 40% more (i.e. 40 units), than the new fuel quantity would be 140 units. If Auto-tune subtracts 3% of that, it would be subtracting 4. (140 x .03 = 4.2, 140 - 4.2 = 135.8 rounded -> 136). So the fuel table cell value in the map would go from being a 40 to a 36 after accepting a trim of -3, rather than a 37.

* Last updated by: untamed on 8/10/2016 @ 8:58 AM *

+1 on the POD 300, I can see whilst I'm riding what my AFR is at specific rpm. Not sure what the LCD200 shows. It makes for easier data logging and then if you want you can log those numbers between the columns in each cell.
It's a great tool to confirm what the trims are suggesting. It also helps to see what the affects are of the trims I have accepted straight away.

I have been doing my runs and accepting all trims. I have not been taking the time lately to look at my fuel table to see the changes the trims made. I know from previous tuning, the fuel table changes by whatever the trim was (+/-1 as discussed above). Weird thing, I just checked the 20% collumn I have done several low rpm runs and two runs to peak rpm. The fuel table has not changed at all from the base map even though I accepted trims. Yes, I'm certain I remembered to Send Table after accepting all trims. Maybe the trims were so small that x% was not enough to change the fuel number. They were very small trims but I believe a couple were more than 1. LOL it could be that the trims from the second run turned around and cancelled out the trims from the first run. Will try again today and then maybe I will do a 40% run (or two if I'm feeling lucky). Tire is flattening off in the center

I had the repeated +4 trims happening at 4250 and 4500 again in the 20% column. This might be caused by not opening the throttle fast enough. That is pretty close to where I was starting my runs today and I noticed the repeated +4s happening again. I focussed on mini runs to get trims for those cells and the ones a little higher and lower. Seemed that opening the throttle quicker helped get the 4250 and 4500 cells to zero out.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/10/2016 @ 12:45 PM *

I don't see how this is any different than using the AFR gauge on the laptop with Dj software velcroed to the tank

Basically the POD-300 is a lot easier/safer to use than the laptop, otherwise for what we are doing you're probably getting the same data on the laptop that you would from the POD-300. The other thing I would use the POD-300 for was data logging since I was specifically trying to fine tune problem areas (lean spots) of my map after a couple of years worth of letting the autotune make adjustments.

So I would use the POD-300 to tell me when my AFR was too lean, I'd hit logging button, hold the TP through the RPM range, turn off logging, pull over to connect my laptop, make the changes and retest. A couple of afternoons and my map is 95% of the way I want it.

Weird thing, I just checked the 20% collumn I have done several low rpm runs and two runs to peak rpm. The fuel table has not changed at all from the base map even though I accepted trims

I always hit both "Send map" and "Sent table" buttons, simply because I can't remember which one sends which charts and haven't cared enough to read up on it again. But since I want all data to be uploaded I figured it doesn't hurt either. Perhaps if you aren't hitting the "Send map" it might not be uploading the adjusted fuel map, you should be able to accept the trims, upload the changes, close the program, reopen it and see the changes after it pulls the map from the PCV.

Basically the POD-300 is a lot easier/safer to use than the laptop, otherwise for what we are doing you're probably getting the same data on the laptop that you would from the POD-300. The other thing I would use the POD-300 for was data logging since I was specifically trying to fine tune problem areas (lean spots) of my map after a couple of years worth of letting the autotune make adjustments.

I always hit both "Send map" and "Sent table" buttons, simply because I can't remember which one sends which charts and haven't cared enough to read up on it again.

SO----here's an interesting little story (at least I think it is). I completed my 40% column tonight after about 3 runs. Only cells that needed work were in the 4000-6500rpm range. IDK how high in the rpm range I went but I was not getting any trims above 6500 which seems to be pretty much the case with all after the 15% column. Here we go, last run...NICE straight road, very open on both sides, can see quite well, quite a safe place in case of deer, no homes or farms, no cars. I hit it in 5th gear. Opened to ~56% TP and held it on, I see my shift light set at 8000rpm has been blinking for a couple seconds, I hear rpm--is it still rising? I'm in a tuck....I figure I must have come close to hitting my peak rpm and max TP but hard to tell with the laptop blown back against the chin of my helmet. Would like to hold throttle for a couple more seconds just to be sure I went all the way BUT---here comes a car. -----SHIT! here comes a car (you know what's coming, don't you--) I've been doing my best to be nonthreatening to other motorists. I wait behind them and I don't pass. I don't do a speed run if there's a car ahead of me or coming at me. Basically, I'm trying to not have people see this. SO---here comes a car. let go of the throttle, full decel feather brake. HOLY F-ing shit out of luck!!! Yep. Cop. Sheriff coming right at me and cruised right past. I think I remember looking at the tach and seeing it wind back to about 7. Sure I must have had it at 9. Why did he not turn around and come after me? IDK. Would have been very easy to keep me in sight for a couple miles. Lots of straight road after that.

So I took my trims and came home. Odd feeling after cheating death (or disaster in this case)...it makes me want to go a little crazy. I had a spirited ride through the twisties and stopped to accept my 40% trims which were all 2s. DONE.

I have some work to do on the clutch. Shift star, oil pump cover and HD clutch springs. I might slow it down for a while.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/10/2016 @ 7:45 PM *

Figured the POD or LCD would provide same info as laptop. The laptop is so damn intrusive and looks like crap if you leave it on the bike.

wrong the pod 300 software does alot more than just a laptop plug into the autotune via a PCV

The LCD is useless junk

The pod 300 can be setup just like your fuel map and log the AFR per fuel trims cells and it records instant

you can also see and log wheel spin ,clutch slippage, injector duty cycles, engine heat,cpu load, throttle position, rpm, MPH, gear position, shift points, it has the dyno software also . you can see grids, graphs, 3d graphs.

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/10/2016 @ 9:24 PM *

Sounds cool but finances dictate that I'm using the LCD for now. It also logs the same data you mentioned but IDK about clutch slippage. Also, I will be installing an Ignition Module soon which will log all that stuff. Maybe I will upgrade to a POD someday. I hate replacing stuff. 3D graphs sounds really cool though.

You still need a laptop to accept trims even with the POD, no?

You still need a laptop to accept trims even with the POD, no?

I'm using the LCD for now. It also logs the same data

good luck

i had an LCD 1 back around 2009 and i know it is 2 different worlds.

after the LCD1 i never even tried a LCD2 .Its like the wideband 1 was better than a wideband 2 .

i'm not fond of dynojet products but pod300 is by far best thing they have made in a long time

You still need a laptop to accept the trims, the "low med and high RPM trim" in the POD-300 actually modifies the fuel map in those ranges, you define the RPM range in the settings of the power commander software on your laptop.

IE, if you define the max RPM as 9000, then low would be 0-3,000, mid 3,000-6,000 high, 6,000-9,000 (more or less). I played around with this on my trip I mentioned earlier, was running lean at the lower altitude so I set the mid fuel trim to +5% and I could see the change of the "INJ1 Change" and an improved AFR. IMO, its useful for quick & dirty on the fly testing to see if you can improve power or want better fuel economy, etc. But 2 maps and a map switch is probably a better permanent solution.

But 2 maps and a map switch is probably a better permanent solution.

closed loop ECU

I did it to my street bike long ago

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/11/2016 @ 9:20 AM *

LCD shows up to 7 channels of data and POD only shows 4 unless you change screens to view up to 4 more. Nobody's gonna do that in the middle of a run. Logs the same data. POD can make data into graphs with WINpep software. Main advantage i see is that the POD is made to be easier to view. I'd go with the POD if I was buying today but not worth upgrading to. I can wear reading glasses.

Rookie: that pump cover is a red herring...

Let sleeping dogs lie.

What say you, oh pundit of all that is metalic?

Muzzy used junk science to arrive at the conclusion that the KHI pump needed bolstering.

The pump generates vast volumes of oil at nominal operating conditions and has been tested for failures: the aftermarket parts have not. Of all the subsystems one can tweak on the Ninjee, this is one best left in the hands of the engineers.

Even for NOS?? I'm planning to have NOS sometime in the future. Most people say, "cheap insurance."

The Muzzy oil pump gear will eat a couple hp and the aftermarket relief valve will also drag on the motor a bit at higher rpm because it does not open as soon as OEM. I'll skip on those. The aftermarket plate is supposed to prevent flexion which I presume avoids the risk of having the pump inlet rise out of the oil under heavy load. Dost thou thinketh this be junk science?

http://zx1441r.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3587&p=32194#p32194

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/11/2016 @ 10:08 PM *

hagrid, I hear ya on the junk science. How much is a 2" steel plate a quarter inch thick going to flex? Not a hell of a lot more than an aluminum one that is 5/16" thick. Romans did it and lots of others so I plan to also. If it was a causing harm, we'da heard about that by now. It is a weightloss mod. I'll scream if that aluminum plate weighs more than the steel one!

So I carved up this little doohicky from some foam.

Double sided tape and velcro--voila!

and it even matches the windscreen!

No more of this unless I'm tuning.

* Last updated by: Rook on 8/12/2016 @ 7:24 PM *

Ever get a trim at 12000 rpm? I have been noticing a 1 or -1 in the bottom cell but I have not even hit 11000 rpm yet.

Ever get a trim at 12000 rpm? I have been noticing a 1 or -1 in the bottom cell but I have not even hit 11000 rpm yet.

no worries that just dynojet science for if you ever hit that area .