No sir, you are not wrong. In fact you are bang on. I will write a test for you all when I get home. AFR is Live.

All who have the software can use this test to convince them selves as need B.

so your going to put the E85 in your pump gas bike and go for a ride without picking up a laptop and changing PCV base map values . thats the test anything else is just talk and talk is cheap

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 6:16 AM *

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My understanding is that Autotune adjusts fueling as I'm riding however to make it permanent on the base map I have to send the trims to the map.

THIS IS CORRECT AND HOW AUTO TUNE WORKS

If I don't accept trims, Autotune will still make changes based on the AFR target set in the base map

THIS IS NOT CORRECT. Auto will not make changes to your base map unless you accept and send to base map

auto tune is making changes but only in its fuel trim tab map not to the base map YOU WILL HAVE TO ACCEPT AND SEND TO BASE MAP

I had an issue with my idling not settling and then contacted DJ, and their advice was to change AFR in the idling cells until it smoothed out. must admit not sure if its right or wrong, but works like a charm now.

REMEMBER WE TALK ABOUT THE AIR BACK FLOWING INTO AN EXHAUST SYSTEM AT LOW RPM .if you 02 sensor is getting false readings its not able to tune correctly . its best to manually input those numbers off motor sound and feel

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 6:31 AM *

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Power Vision Autotune Product Overview

Autotune Basic and Pro

Autotune for Power Vision is a built-in feature inside the device itself that is free of charge. Autotune gives you the capability to perform closed-loop tuning of the Power Vision so you can further enhance your motorcycle’s calibration. Power Vision is a ECM flash tuning device, so the adjustments are calculated real-time in the Power Vision, this allows you to review the changes and either accept or ignore them, before flashing the updated tune to the bike’s ECM. There are two versions of Autotune for the Power Vision – Basic and Pro.

Autotune Basic: This is included for FREE with the Power Vision. It utilizes the stock narrow-band oxygen sensors that come equipped on the motorcycle*. With a few simple clicks of the Power Vision’s touch-screen, you can perform real-time data-logging and calibration to your Power Vision. Works with all 2001-2016 models equipped with factory oxygen sensors.

Autotune Pro: Requires the purchase of the Autotune Pro accessory kit. It includes a control module, two wide-band oxygen sensors, cables, and everything needed for installation.

dynojet

i highlighted whats got you guys all fukk up

its says it closed loop tuning to the" POWER VISION" not to the PCV or ECU WHICH IS CORRECT in truth auto tune is making real time adjustments in closed loop to the fuel trim tab map . BUT NOT TO THE BASE MAP OR ECU

you go to highlight number 2 you must

this allows you to review the changes and either accept or ignore them, before flashing the updated tune to the bike’s ECM.

SCHOOLS OUT

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 6:58 AM *

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAdlnSCFvvw&index=17&list=PLFAB410BA3DB1887F

0:12 stop time and look at the package... narrow = basic (within a narrow range).
0:48 stop time now use our wide band feature = pro for tuning. (with a wide band 02) = LIMP (narrow out of the input loop)... follows same AFR up a mountain = Rich.

Skoolzzzzzzzzz out!

* Last updated by: Hub on 8/22/2016 @ 8:22 AM *

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If say the APS (VOES for h-d) is pulling less air, that more is pulling like it was at idle (less vac pull with throttle closed), thus, more near 10° for idle, and the unburnt is sluggish in power. So even the APS/VOES is not helping at altitude. Does that make sense?

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0:12 stop time and look at the package... narrow = basic (within a narrow range).
0:48 stop time now use our wide band feature = pro for tuning. (with a wide band 02) = LIMP (narrow out of the input loop)... follows same AFR up a mountain = Rich.

Skoolzzzzzzzzz out!

so the adjustments are calculated real-time in the Power Vision, this allows you to review the changes and either accept or ignore them, before flashing the updated tune to the bike’s ECM

reading is not your strong point

if dynojet would put as much effort into their products as they do in marketing them . them you'll have something . but obviously their salesmen didn't read the instruction

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 8:46 AM *

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I think you guys are all saying the same thing and arguing who is wrong!

Autotune requires you to accept trims....aftermarket ECU with tuner makes trims and accepts them instantly.

I still would like to hear Romes' test. Is it ride bike, look at fuel trims, ride bike again, look at fuel trims? Did they not change? Sure they do. Already seen that.

WOOOOO! hold the phone!! Are you saying Auto tune will suggest trims based on the target AFR + whatever the the past trims in the trims table are/were?? So the effect of gather ring trims is cumulative even if you do not accept the trims?? If so, this would be just as good as a full automatic tuner that adjusts on the fly...eve better because I don't want to make big changes to my map unless I see what is hapening.

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That is what you're saying, isn't it, Romes.

...if so, no real need to do three runs and stop in between to accept trims. Do 10 runs without touching the computer if you want and then the trims should be as perfect as they can get.

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WOOOOO! hold the phone!! Are you saying Auto tune will suggest trims based on the target AFR + whatever the the past trims in the trims table are/were?? So the effect of gather ring trims is cumulative even if you do not accept the trims?? If so, this would be just as good as a full automatic tuner that adjusts on the fly...eve better because I don't want to make big changes to my map unless I see what is hapening.

I don't think it acumulates. From what I have read and learnt from practice, it just keeps calculating based on what the O2 sensor sniffs versus the target AFR (plus any changes you accepted to the base map) It then keeps doing this until you either accept the trims or zero them. Only at this point does it become permanent in your base map if you accept trims. It will then start calculating again based on the new base map figures, thus getting to smaller and smaller margins.

three runs and stop in between to accept trims. Do 10 runs without touching the computer if you want and then the trims should be as perfect as they can get.

i suppose you would have to have bigger parameters so as to make "bigger" changes. I prefer to work with smaller changes I.e. First runs 20% and then narrow it down as we go. It seems safer especially when I am at 1850 meters above sea level.

* Last updated by: untamed on 8/22/2016 @ 10:21 AM *

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Note the spit time. If I spit out a cell number, then it's this moment, this ambient, this atmo pressure of this month/hour/minute/second = Click and save. So a cold spit count at a cooler night run, I'd have a rich map = Click and save. I run the night map during the day, [richer] is the saved map it's reading off of.

Isn't that the whole point of autotune is to save a rich running map? You know those mornings when the bike is peppier than any other time? Cold, crisp running? Save and toss that in the saved map file. How close am I?

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I think you guys are all saying the same thing and arguing who is wrong!

no we are not . romans reallY thinks autotune with a PCV is the same or can function as a standalone ECU.

closed loop like your car
vs
open loop like your zx14

apples and oranges
black and white
ET or Yoda

Autotune requires you to accept trims....aftermarket ECU with tuner makes trims and accepts them instantly.

there is no "tuner" with a standalone ECU it is part of the ECU . ITS ALL ONE PACKAGE

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My understanding is that Autotune adjusts fueling as I'm riding however to make it permanent on the base map I have to send the trims to the map. If I don't accept trims, Autotune will still make changes based on the AFR target set in the base map and what the O2 sensor is sending back vs the % lean/rich parameters set in, just wont send them as permanent.

Untamed, you are correct in your understanding of how autotune works. The system takes your target AFR, takes a reading of the current AFR from the oxygen sensor and determines how much the fueling needs to be adjusted, it takes this number and puts it into the Trim Table and USES this number to modify amount of fuel going to the engine based on the Fuel Map + the Trim Table. This is done on the fly, for testing/proof, try setting a range of target AFR cells to something terrible, like 17:1 or 10:1 AFR, set you min/max trim for autotune to 20% (or more) and go riding in that cell range.

You will see the AFR on your LCD change quickly to the new target AFR, and with horrible AFR you will probably feel a lack of power in that range. Pull out the laptop, you'll see the Fuel Map hasn't changed, but the Trim Table will show the +/- numbers that Auto tune is adjusting the PCV map by. This Trim Table can be thought of as a short term fuel trim (in car speak) where the Fuel Map is a long term fuel trim, when you accept the auto tune trims that means the short term trims are now long term trims and the system continues to make changes based on your target AFR.

This system is considered a basic (very limited sensor input) closed loop system since the engine fueling is adjusted based on input from a sensor (O2 sensor in this case). This fuel adjustment is then measured by the O2 sensor and further adjustments are made. This fuel adjustment is then measured by the O2 sensor and further adjustments are made. This fuel adjustment is then measured by the O2 sensor and further adjustments are made. This fuel adjustment is then measured by the O2 sensor and further adjustments are made. etc

In an open loop system, no adjustments are made on the fly but the fueling (since that's all autotune adjusts) is determined by a pre-set fuel map.

Before you post a reply stating that this is wrong, for the love of God go test it, please don't post things like "well, I haven't bothered to test this out but you're wrong". Also, keep in mind that this thread is about Rook's experience using an auto-tune accessory to his PCV piggyback module.

I don't think it acumulates. From what I have read and learnt from practice, it just keeps calculating based on what the O2 sensor sniffs versus the target AFR (plus any changes you accepted to the base map) It then keeps doing this until you either accept the trims or zero them. Only at this point does it become permanent in your base map if you accept trims. It will then start calculating again based on the new base map figures, thus getting to smaller and smaller margins.

Correct

It will then start calculating again based on the new base map figures,

PLUS 02 readings and AFR trim values to get your new number.

ITS ALSO KNOW THAT for some reason if you keep accepting maps certain fuel trim cells values can have stupid numbers that are incorrect. like when you have numbers in areas the bike rpm and throttle position never had been in.

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 11:07 AM *

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Before you post a reply stating that this is wrong, for the love of God go test it, please don't post things like "well, I haven't bothered to test this out but you're wrong". Also, keep in mind that this thread is about Rook's experience using an auto-tune accessory to his PCV piggyback module.

you need to test

You will see the AFR on your LCD change quickly to the new target AFR, and with horrible AFR you will probably feel a lack of power in that range. Pull out the laptop, you'll see the Fuel Map hasn't changed, but the Trim Table will show the +/- numbers that Auto tune is adjusting the PCV map by.

test is simple
put e85 in your pump gas bike and ride it see how autotune adjust your fuel map

i don't care what your LCD screen is showing for autotune AFR'S we will see what your motor has to say on this subject.

I DARE YOU please your so sure

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It must have an O2 sensor at least. Sounds great if it works and is cost effective. If I were in the market, I'd research further. I don't know how this is being kept secret. Dj will have to do he same thing or they'll be making dynos only.

YES THEY HAVE 02 SENSORS
its no secret the standalone ECU'S have been out for years you don't have to buy 20 things to do separate stuff . RACERS have been running them and anybody thats around racing knows this.
racing and parts site sell them just everybody goes the power commander way due to marketing and believe a myth.

hell just look at how many on this thread think autotune is a true closed loop system . 8 years ago smart guys knew better.
i throw the test out there please do it see what happens

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 11:31 AM *

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I deleted last post 1bad has quoted from above. Most seems irrelevant since Auto tune does make changes on the fly. I would be looking into an aftermarket ECU if I was starting from scratch on a new bike.

This Trim Table can be thought of as a short term fuel trim (in car speak) where the Fuel Map is a long term fuel trim, when you accept the auto tune trims that means the short term trims are now long term trims and the system continues to make changes based on your target AFR.

So there it is. If this is the case, why bother tuning? Why not just let Autotune do all the work? Set fuel trims for +/-100%. why limit how far it can go to correct your AFR? and why are we doing the careful runs at X throttle position with only forward throttle movement if Autotune is just going to come around later and change that when we are riding normally on and off throttle??

Edit: If you did no tuning runs at all to permanently adjust your fueling, Autotune would adjust it perfectly well...as long as you ONLY rode the bike the way you would while di=oing a tuning run. That is forwrd or steady throttle movement and never backward movement. Nobody rides like that and that is why Autotune cannot be relied upon to tune unless it is used in deliberate and carefully executed tuning runs. Trims made by Autotune after tuning are temporary. If the throttle is held steady for a few seconds, the trim will balance out to perfect. Trims made on increasing throttle will get the AFR closer to where it should be. Once you roll off the throtttle, that is where you will get bad trims and that is why you can't use Autotune during normal riding. It's ok for temporary trims after tuning though. Sure you might get bad trims at times but it will only be s a small change and it will update again the next time your in the cell.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/16/2016 @ 5:40 PM *

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7 year old testing

So there it is. If this is the case, why bother tuning? Why not just let Autotune do all the work? Set fuel trims for +/-100%. why limit how far it can go to correct your AFR? and why are we doing the careful runs at X throttle position with only forward throttle movement if Autotune is just going to come around later and change that when we are riding normally on and off throttle??

correct the bike should run perfect all the time like your car if it was a closed loop system with auto tune on!! it should be tuned all the time to your set fuel trim values
your getting there rook

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 8/22/2016 @ 11:54 AM *

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Can't say I've ever had a problem with how my bike has run. Autotune has been adjusting for the past 6 years and I never even knew it. I always thought you had to accept the trims in order for them to affect the fueling. Well, I guess it's working. The only way I'm going to know it's not working is if I shut it off for a while and the bike starts to run worse.

...So I can just put my 15 shot nozzles in the NOS and set Autotune Max/Min trims for 100% and it will adjust the fueling for me? ...without accepting trims...AT will add fuel according to how much O2 is coming out in the exhaust? Why not go straight to the 80 shot nozzles then? No, I'm not going to try it, just asking "what if."

EDIT: If I did no tuning runs, I might get away with Autotune improving or correcting my AFR with NOS if I use only a smalll shot. A large shot would take Autotune too long to figure out. My engine would burn up before the correct AFR was found. Autotune would try but with less than a second to find the right amount of gasoline to inject, a large shot of nitrous would gain the upper hand in a hurry. So, tuning runs accepting trims with increasingly large shots is how it must be done to allow Autotune time to gather correct trims.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/16/2016 @ 5:51 PM *

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So I can just put my 15 shot nozzles in the NOS and set Autotune Max/Min trims for 100% and it will adjust the fueling for me? ...without accepting trims...AT will add fuel according to how much O2 is coming out in the exhaust? Why not go straight to the 80 shot nozzles then? No, I'm not going to try it, just asking "what if."

me 2 I'm going to put a 20lb spring in my waste gate and let auto tune do it all for me next time down the race track

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That is what you're saying, isn't it, Romes.

I don't know what to say anymore. This is so simple,,,,hurts me brain reading above lol.

And Bad why are you so hung up on this E-85. You don't own a fuel system that can compensate for a 30% increase fuel needed when running E-85 in the closed loop. Nor the injectors for a 20lb spring(But I Do Lol). If this is a effort to derail what should be a simple thread, you have done it. I am reading above and am lost on where to begin to explain.

NightMare has a clear understanding, untamed gets it. Why is this so hard for you to grasp ? Now even Rook is lost. Soon I will be lost too.

It would seem We have a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, which is the way he wants it. Now I don't like it,,,,,,

Rook will you film a vid for me ?????,,,, this may be the only way to break through.

..So I can just put my 15 shot nozzles in the NOS and set Autotune Max/Min trims for 100% and it will adjust the fueling for me? ...without accepting trims...AT will add fuel according to how much O2 is coming out in the exhaust? Why not go straight to the 80 shot nozzles then? No, I'm not going to try it, just asking "what if."

Your RPM climb would be way to fast. 02 sensor only reads ten times a second. Zero Trims and motor Boom.

WOOOOO! hold the phone!! Are you saying Auto tune will suggest trims based on the target AFR + whatever the the past trims in the trims table are/were?? So the effect of gather ring trims is cumulative even if you do not accept the trims?? If so, this would be just as good as a full automatic tuner that adjusts on the fly...eve better because I don't want to make big changes to my map unless I see what is hapening.

Yes, Yes Yes and one sorta,,,,,, Light is on.... phew ! I was about to Tap

Isn't that the whole point of autotune is to save a rich running map? You know those mornings when the bike is peppier than any other time? Cold, crisp running? Save and toss that in the saved map file. How close am I?

Close, Big subject, Manifold Air Density Or Mad. Cool Air Read

Click Air density

Sure, Romes. Just tell me what you want to see.

NightMare has a clear understanding, untamed gets it. Why is this so hard for you to grasp ? Now even Rook is lost. Soon I will be lost too.

I believe I get what Nightmare has explained about how Autotune corrects in a closed loop fashion when it makes trims and how it corrects in an open loop fashion when you accept trims. I just don't get why we don't set trims to +/-100% and let it go closed loop all the time -- except that we know Autotune makes bad trims under certain conditions. We don't want to allow it to make large trims in those situations. So turn the Max/Min% way down or turn AT off altogether until you want to tune again.

EDIT: that's why we don't set Autotune for +/-100% and letr it tune automatically. It's going to make a few bad choices every now and then. If they are large bad choices, they could cause large problems

Enough of the speculation. Just tell me what to film. I'm off work for the next 2 days. Dad's got me hauling wood but he gets tired quick.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/16/2016 @ 5:56 PM *

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