Rook please don't rev the "Crap" out of your bike. This is what turned me off the last time I tried to explain how to use Auto tune.

I leave 10% column for the road rather than in the garage. In other words as soon as cell tracer touches 10% I leave throttle.

when we will be tuning on the road starting from 0% TP/3000 rpm? I don't see the reason to do it in Neutral if we will do it on the road again anyway.

Check Romans thread and he explains how to do the "stepping" of the map in those low areas where cell tracer didn't touch. You are going to zero the corresponding AFR in those cells also so they won't be affected by autotune when you are on the road.

Did you start with all your existing trims and fuel changes still reflecting in the map?
Save your old map? Start with a new map with the AFR target you want and zero all the trims and fuel cells. Once changes and stepping are done in the 0-5% columns add that to your existing map you had. Then reduce the parameters to 10% for the road to reduce fuel dumping effect.

* Last updated by: untamed on 7/28/2016 @ 12:42 AM *

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Hey Rook,

I think you're on the right track for fine tuning your map, untamed and Romans have been giving you good advice here. To reiterate an important point that Romans mentioned, autotuning in neutral would really only be a quick/easy way to get the low RPM low throttle cells tuned closer to ideal. Don't worry about hitting all of the cells on the entire map, you'll quickly see which throttle position and RPM you actually ride in as there will be significant changes in those cells.

The other thing about not tuning all of the cells in the map, if you're not tuning them its because you're not hitting those cells during your riding which means that whether or not they are tuned is really irrelevant since you don't actually use them.

Thanks, guys. Don't get ahead of me though lol I'm still working on my fuel dump zone.

as soon as cell tracer touches 10% I leave throttle.

Same here. Well I hold it maybe almost a full second--or I try to, at least...and looks like I will be doing this at least one more time before I get it right.

Did you start with all your existing trims and fuel changes still reflecting in the map?

Yes I did and that's the problem...don't know what trims are from the serious tuning session and which are just there from normal riding. Can't see where the steps are in the cells because I have trims from previous riding all around.

If I remember correctly. Once you accept/delete trims or zero them manually and you don't send this map to PCV. It will revert back to what was there before.

Sure does. Clearing trims just puts a blanket over them. They're still there. I even tried accepting all and sending trims and damned if they weren't still there! Map no good now so I replaced it with a fresh copy....GUESS WHAT?? NO TRIMS!! So that's what you do to permanently clear trims forever, replace the map? Nope, click on Get Map > Trims and the bloody things are still there. If there's a way to get a clear slate, I have not found it. I'm just going to have to watch the display and note what cells Cell Tracer hits while I'm spinning my engine at 7600 rom. Anyway, I'm off to the garage. No work for next two days, upper 70s and humidity about 50%. Perfect tuning weather. Great time to start afresh.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 10:07 AM *

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Load new map with your target AFR. zero/clear all trims and fuel table. Now send map. (If you don't it will keep coming back with previous trims.)
Click on Trims table on the top left under AFR file, it should all be zero. Click on fuel file and that should also be zero.
Now do your runs, click "get table" and the new trims should show. Accept the relevant trims and send map again. Now all trims should be zero and changes will reflect in the fuel table. Note the fuel table will not zero. It will add/subtract fuel values onto the last number until you stop accepting trims. Do your runs, and repeat the process until you are happy. Remember to send map each time or it will revert back to previous/last numbers sent.
Watch temperature. You might have to leave it a bit between runs. I'm sure your neighbours are enjoying the "music"

After you are done accepting trims, look at the fuel table and you will see the "steps" quite easy. Now zero the AFR table where the fuel cells didn't touch. See Romans example pic. You can now copy and paste these columns into your original map and send this to your PCV.

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So this is the stairway we're looking for? I did some very slow throttle ups to determine cell tracer's path. It wants to jump between the 2% column and the 5% column between 3250 rpm and 3750 rpm. If I go very slow and steady, I can get it to stay in teh 2% column up to 3750 rpm. Cell tracer was much more decisive moving from 2% to 5%. The jump from 5% to 10% at 6500 rpm is very crisp and definite.

So my question is, Do include ALL of the cells cell tracer touches (including the wavering between TP% at 3250 rpm to 3750 rpm) or do I want only the single path indicated in my drawing below to be my fuel dump staircase?

Click on Trims table on the top left under AFR file, it should all be zero. Click on fuel file and that should also be zero.
Now do your runs, click "get table" and the new trims should show. Accept the relevant trims and send map again. Now all trims should be zero and changes will reflect in the fuel table. Note the fuel table will not zero. It will add/subtract fuel values onto the last number until you stop accepting trims. Do your runs, and repeat the process until you are happy. Remember to send map each time or it will revert back to previous/last numbers sent.
Watch temperature. You might have to leave it a bit between runs. I'm sure your neighbours are enjoying the "music"

I musty have been being hasty earlier because this is now working perfectly. Thanks. I don't want to get rid of the Fuel file. Just AFRs and Trims.

Watch temperature. You might have to leave it a bit between runs. I'm sure your neighbours are enjoying the "music"

Yeah, I wait at least 20-30 minutes between runs. Got up to 5 bars while tracking cell tracers rout. Was to 6 bars when shut down. Fairings on, no box fan. Yes neighbors must be thrilled.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 1:08 PM *

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Have it! Excellent instruction on the use of the software, untamed. Never knew you had to clck Get Table to bring up current trims.

Target AFR is 13.1

Largest change I have is -12. Rev to that cell and the AFR is indeed 12.5 or so.

Smallest number I have is a 1. Rev to that cell and AFR is ~13.5

Seems to be working. I will accept and send (needed that instruction, too).

I'm using a box fan from about 1977 to blow onto the radiator. It's not too strong but seems to be doing the job quite well.

I'll do another run and look at trims and AFR from last run.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 2:02 PM *

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Successfully applied first trims to base map. Noticing something odd. The new number in the fuel map is sometimes off by one compared to what I would expect from the trims. Have carefully compared new map to base map to trims and definetly see the adjustment is sometimes one more or less than it should be. Is this because AT does not consider the 0 mark as a number? No, does not appear to be the case in at least one cell...that one never crossed the 0 mark so should add whatever number was in the trim for that cell. I guess no biggy. I suspect AT may actually detect trims in decimals but only expresses in whole numbers by rounding up or down. ..so when trims are applied, they may be one more or less than what the trims table tells you.

Next run, lower min/max trim to 10%, watch AFR and look at second set of trims.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 2:49 PM *

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HOLY SHIT! AFR was at 16 at idle. Ran 5-10 seconds and I shut down.

AT suggested -10 and it was running a bit rich at idle so I figured.....-10, OK. Not OK. I'm guessing maybe from Auto Tune sample right off of start up? Edited that -10 to a -1. Proceeding with grave caution.

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Noticed AFR is always a bit erratic when first started even with warm engine....also noticing what Nightmare was talking about with lag in AFR reading to software display...yeah...maybe a couple seconds....

Have trims from second run. fewer corrections and small #s all single digit. I do see AT is again suggesting leaning up idle. I edited down to -6 manually and saw no significant AFR change...still runs about 12.5. May try -10 again just to see if AFR is lean or was that just a temporary 16 AFR I saw because of start up.

Fun, yes. Saw police go by the house as I was leaving on an errand. Came back and did second run. Hope the neighbors have enough sense to complain to me about the noise before the poopo. I think the po would prolly just tell me to quit anyway. I hope.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 4:12 PM *

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Yes, bike runs leaner on fast idle and gets richer as it warms up. I noticed making edits with bike running at idle makes little difference in AFR. ECU is probably adjusting fuel to counteract my adjustments. Will have to put back to 0 at idle and see if that makes any dif in AFR. I don't see any reason to change AFR here anyway. Romans put a 0 at 1000 rpm so bike idles on Stock number anyway.

Also figured out why AT keeps telling me to subtract fuel at idle. Idle in Neutral is for cold engine running lean getting richer as it warms. Bike is hot by the time I complete run. Let go of throttle, rpm rests at idle. AT samples 0%TP/1000rpm on hot engine, makes trim to subtract fuel at idle because now engine is running very rich. In short, rich AFR is probably normal for a warm engine at idle and IDT you can change it much if the ECU is automatically adjusting at the same time. SO--leave idle 0 no matter what AT tells you?

Did third run with trims set at +/-5%. Mostly 0s. All numbers telling me to add fuel. Only one 5. rest 1s and 2 maybe one 3. All AFRs are in the 13 range. I will accept and send. May try another run tomorrow. Hope for all 0s. If not, I have to carry on with road tuning. Neighbors will kill me if I keep this up.

* Last updated by: Rook on 7/28/2016 @ 5:26 PM *

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Now you know why Romans says "it hurts the head" doing this stuff. lol

I guess no biggy. I suspect AT may actually detect trims in decimals but only expresses in whole numbers by rounding up or down. ..so when trims are applied, they may be one more or less than what the trims table tells you.

What I have seen by playing with the POD300 is that you can log data from 1% all the way through to 100%. So logic tells me that the auto-tune picks up the average between 0-2% and 2-5% etc. so Ive seen the same thing as you. I check the AFR on my screen to confirm that all is good.

As for the idle numbers, mine does the same. It depends here also on what AFR your bike is running on std fueling as well as parameters set in auto tune. So I have tried different things. e.g Used a zero AFR and then only adjust the fuel cell, that worked fine but then at different altitudes/heat ranges it can run lean. So here I put in a target of 13.5 AFR and manually adjust the fuel trims until I get a happy medium. I also don't use auto-tune suggested numbers.

id third run with trims set at +/-5%. Mostly 0s. All numbers telling me to add fuel. Only one 5. rest 1s and 2 maybe one 3. All AFRs are in the 13 range. I will accept and send. May try another run tomorrow. Hope for all 0s. If not, I have to carry on with road tuning. Neighbors will kill me if I keep this up.

I'm not sure if you will ever get 0 in all the cells. There are so many different influences here, temperature, humidity etc. I don't sweat the 1s and 2s that pop up, as auto-tune will take care of that as you ride.

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I'm not sure if you will ever get 0 in all the cells.

I was thinking the same. I would not be too surprised if some trims I made earlier are now getting trimmed back in the other direction by 1 or 2. When this seems to be stablised and I get 1s and 2s and a lot of 0s, it's done.

thanks for sticking with me. I got a handle on this fuel dump zone tuning but I'm not completely sure I know what i should cut out of the AFR table for road tuning and how exactly to go about road tuning.

Writing the tutorial now. It's actually looking to be a lot less work than I thought it'd be. The software tut will probably have been much more complicated. ...but maybe I speak too soon.

Keep an eye out for more questions tomorrow, please. Thanks so much.

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Guys I'm starting Holidays on Sunday. This will be in a small fishing town(Yarmouth Nova Scotia)where I'm from. I will be going with All Women and kids. None of these women like to burn Gas, so something tells me I will be spending lots of time on the net. With That being said let's get into this and try to keep it simple for all to understand. And Yes it is simple based on your exposure time promise. So let's play and maybe you guys can help me from losing my mind lol.

Yes, bike runs leaner on fast idle and gets richer as it warms up. I noticed making edits with bike running at idle makes little difference in AFR. ECU is probably adjusting fuel to counteract my adjustments. Will have to put back to 0 at idle and see if that makes any dif in AFR. I don't see any reason to change AFR here anyway. Romans put a 0 at 1000 rpm so bike idles on Stock number anyway.

"ECU is probably adjusting" As time goes on Rook you will quickly see all the promised adjustment from the sensor inputs add up to Zip. Your bike will not fix AFR at 6000 feet nor will it adjust for sea level. Sorry. Which is why cookie cutter maps will "NOT" be perfect. One Flash or one Tune does not fit all bikes, never did.

Which brings up a area for you to study. Once your become use to your software you need to play with the seconds before Auto Tuning is activated. This is In your PCV setting for Auto Tune. Starting the bike begins our fast idle, if bike is cold you do not want AFR slamming Rich/Lean. The setting from the day before is fine. So do not have auto tune activated in two seconds of run time. Make sense ? Unless bike is warm and you're just playing with the software of course.

As I read the above I need to point out you guys have jumped right into the hardest area to tune. Which is the areas that provide the smoothest running and the most rewards, but if done wrong will frustrate you to no end. Tuners skip over this area for a reason. As you're about to learn.

Once you have your No Load area's of the fuel map cells complete. Go into your AFR table and remove those cells. Skip this step and Auto tune will never stop hunting for the perfect AFR that you set.

Important to understand that 02 sensor reading will never correct if your wrist is always cycling the throttle, and this is what is happening if you're riding the bike. So go back to N set that area up to 5000 rpm and then remove those cells from AFR table.

Skip this step and your bottom cells will have values of -35 and plus 40% above and below stock. Now the fuel cells above and below those ones will try and compensate for bad AFR #'s. The process will grow and continue through your fuel map over and over until your bike runs like a polished turd. This is where guys will scream the software and Auto Tune doesn't work,,,,, but it does. The user of the tools just needs to learn to use the tool properly. Proof is in the AFR.

Now I can see from above you're already there. But you need to play here to understand your software and what it's doing. Like I said this can be hard on the head but with help What took me years to learn now should only take you hours. So keep at it.

I'm not sure if you will ever get 0 in all the cells. There are so many different influences here, temperature, humidity etc. I don't sweat the 1s and 2s that pop up, as auto-tune will take care of that as you ride.

I would not be too surprised if some trims I made earlier are now getting trimmed back in the other direction by 1 or 2. When this seems to be stabilized and I get 1s and 2s and a lot of 0s, it's done.

Exactly, and don't think for one second that your AFR numbers will not fluctuate. It's to be expected. All normal.

* Last updated by: Romans on 7/29/2016 @ 10:42 AM *

Rook,

Regarding mucking with the idle (750-1250 RPM range, 0% throttle) don't stress about it. There are SO many factors that will mess with your readings I wouldn't even bother looking at what the O2 sensor is telling you in this range.

For idle your 2 worst enemies are going to be heat (or lack there of) and "contaminated" exhaust gas where the exhaust strokes can pull in fresh air or any kind of exhaust leak as the pressure in your exhaust system at this point is relatively low.

So tune it the way you would an idle air screw on a carb, get the bike to normal operating temp (go for a ride) and try adjusting the 750 - 1250 RPM/0% throttle range using the bike's current RPM (since you have a LCD screen) or your ears. The perfect AFR will be what gives you the highest RPM and once you start getting above 1250 then back your idle screw down to 1,000RPM and try adjusting again.

I ended up not worrying about the idle range after trying to adjust mine, when the bike is cold its claiming ~16:1 AFR, if I add %15 fuel, no difference, when the bike is warm it'll show anywhere between 12.5 to 15 with no change in the RPM.

Something to remember too a lean mixture under no load won't destroy your engine the damage comes from a lean mixture under high engine load.

Hey Romans,

I've heard the saying "Rich best torque, lean best power." from a few other places before, but I always thought that made no sense. Since isn't horsepower simply the result of a formula with torque and RPM as the variables? Such that, as torque or RPM increases so does horsepower which would mean that we would want to tune for the most torque possible as that will also equal the most horsepower possible.

For anyone who doesn't know what formula I am talking about see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

So do not have auto tune activated in two seconds of run time.

Even if the bike is started warm, the idle and AFR are not stable for a while. I've found it convenient to turn Auto tune on in the software just before I am ready to do the run. Usually a minimum of 30 seconds after start if the bike was still 2-3 bars warm from the last run. That way, I choose when the sampling starts and when I'm ready to do the run and avoid any possible weird sampling at startup. I do not do a run when the engine is hot either. Not just because I know it's going to get even hotter but because 5-6 bars is not how I run the bike in real life. Maybe in the future I will want to tune for high and low temp and then I may need to run the engine into those temp zones to sample.

Once you have your No Load area's of the fuel map cells complete. Go into your AFR table and remove those cells.

So go back to N set that area up to 5000 rpm and then remove those cells from AFR table.

I took this pic from your thread. Is this the area to zero out target AFRs for road tuning? All cells above the stairway in the 10, 5, 2, and 0% columns? Then the target AFR in the cells of the stairway are zeroed, too because we already tuned that in the garage. So every cell that has been garage tuned in neutral is set to a target AFR of 0 and every cell above the stairway is also set to 0 target AFR. Is that right? if not I'll come back and edit this.

Edit, Rook: The fuel dump zone that is to be shut off is ONLY the cells that cell tracer enters during the Neutral tuning. These should be shut off after tuned in neutral. The cells at lower rpm in the same columns can be tuned on the road.

So tune it the way you would an idle air screw on a carb, get the bike to normal operating temp (go for a ride) and try adjusting the 750 - 1250 RPM/0% throttle range using the bike's current RPM (since you have a LCD screen) or your ears. The perfect AFR will be what gives you the highest RPM and once you start getting above 1250 then back your idle screw down to 1,000RPM and try adjusting again.

Great post up there, Nightmare. Thanks. Good analogy. That goes in the tutorial word for word.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/15/2016 @ 8:25 PM *

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Romans referring to your pic above. How did you do the 10% column more specific determine the step, Or is it just for illustration? I ask because in road tuning I get trims in all the cells obviously because I have AFR numbers in the whole column.

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Rook,

Your picture looks correct, if those cells have been tuned and you're happy with the results, set the target AFR to 0 so the autotune won't adjust those cells anymore when you go to start tuning the rest of the fuel map.

Hey Romans,
I've heard the saying "Rich best torque, lean best power." from a few other places before, but I always thought that made no sense. Since isn't horsepower simply the result of a formula with torque and RPM as the variables? Such that, as torque or RPM increases so does horsepower which would mean that we would want to tune for the most torque possible as that will also equal the most horsepower possible.
For anyone who doesn't know what formula I am talking about see:

Big Subject. This video will break it down in Easy to understand terms.

UNDERSTAND AFR VALUES:
AFR Values & Characteristics in Four Stroke Engines
6.0 AFR - Rich Burn Limit (engine fully warm)
9.0 AFR - Black Smoke / Low Power
11.5 AFR - Best Rich Torque at Wide Open Throttle
12.2 AFR - Safe Best Power at Wide Open Throttle
13.3 AFR - Lean Best Torque
14.6 AFR - Stoichiometric AFR (Stoich)
15.5 AFR - Lean Cruise
16.5 AFR - Usual Best Economy
18.0 AFR - Carbureted Lean Burn Limit
22.0+ AFR - EEC / EFI Lean Burn Limit

Lean Conditions - Common Side Affects
Hotter Engine Temperatures
Detonation / Pinging
Hesitation in Throttle Response

Rich Conditions - Common Side Affects
Engine Flooding
Decel Pop / Backfiring
Lethargic Throttle Response
Excess Carbon Build-up (sooty pipes)
Fuel Smell from the Exhaust

Romans referring to your pic above. How did you do the 10% column more specific determine the step, Or is it just for illustration? I ask because in road tuning I get trims in all the cells obviously because I have AFR numbers in the whole column.

Ahhhhh, I was hoping you weren't going to ask that question but since you did,,,,,,

Answer, I had a laptop scotch locked on my gas tank. While running at highway speeds, Cell tracer active in real time all becomes visible. There is No way to not understand when you can see in real time. Results were bang on. All my fuel cells up to 90mph are exact with Ram Air in play.,,,,, Then throttle to zero, stop bike, except trims,send map Turn off those cells. From here wrist movement couldn't Fuck it up.

Now I am by no means recommending this to anyone, so please don't. But In order to see the exact AFR at 75 mph I needed to see what TPS/RPM fuel to adjust perfectly. As you now can understand the wrist movement was dumping fuel making a mess. Neutral will not give the proper load for highway speeds. only solves bottom fuel dumping issues.

My fuel dump stairway is tuned. I'm only getting a couple trims with MAx/Min % set at +/-5 The trims only seem to be showing up in the 750-2500 rpm range so I am not even bothering to rev all the way to 6500 to collect trims. Might do a couple more of these runs just to see if I can get these down to 1 or 2.

Is my target AFR chart ready for road tuning? Please note, I have zeroed out the one cell I have tuned in the 10% column. should I leave that 10% TP/6500 rpm at 13.1 for road tuning? I guess it does not really matter now since it's tuned hey?

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Now I am by no means recommending this to anyone, so please don't.

WTH you talking about, Romans? I'm gonna do it...and recommend it!

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Nope. There about as ON the money as they can be. One run tells me to subtract the next tells me to add in the same cells.

I went with the fuel dump stairway zeroed out of target AFRs in search of a long straight and quiet road to do some 0% column tuning. Man that was a waste of tires. You could do that in a parking lot. It's good to be able to ride the bike five or ten minutes to cool it off between runs though. I have Min/Max% trims set back to 20 but I did not get trims any bigger than +/-5. The only gear suitable for doing 0 and 2% TP is first. I'll get as much of the 0% column as I can but it's a little tricky to hold the throttle at less than 2%. If it jumps over to the 2% column I just hold it there and tune the 2% column which revs out at about 2000.

Edit: I believe I was under the impression that the bike might run in cells above the fuel dump zone in the 0% column if it was run in gear. It does not. There is no reason to tune on the road if it's already tuned in Neutral and I suppose that is why I did not get an large trims.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/15/2016 @ 8:36 PM *

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I think I pretty much understand the basics of how this works now. I mean, i could ask many questions but I don't think any would be imperative to getting this done.

The bike might run a little better at cruising speeds where I have tuned it. I don't think I made a huge change to the base map (which I already was happy with) but it seems to have more of a feeling of --I guess you'd say "quality" running at cruising speed.

The 0% collumn includes 0 and 1% throttle and it can occupy the cells from 1250 to 2000 rpm. I doubt I ever operate the bike in this area of the fuel table but I see no reason to not tune it. I'm planning to run the bike uphill in first gear in an effort to keep the throttle in one cell at a time (all three of them).

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