I was just curious as to your starting point, if you were subtracting fuel from the stock map with a rich AFR that would have been a bit strange, but from an existing map makes more sense.

I've had the head shake while accelerating as I believe its a result of the suspension becoming unloaded due to the torque but never while slowing down or braking. The only things I can think of are the condition of the front tire, poor road condition, really high pre-load on the forks, or REALLY bad steering geometry (ie, if you raised the rear of the bike by a large amount and lowered the front significantly). Since you thought it might have something to do with the suspension bouncing you could try adjusting the rebound or compression dampening to see if it helps, 1 or 2 clicks makes a pretty big difference, so write down and check each of your changes. There's others of this forum that would have better advice on this though.

The .1 difference between the target AFR and the measured AFR could simply be slight differences between the cylinders (ie 1 & 4 vs 2 & 3), for example if the outside cylinders are running slightly lean and the inside slightly rich the difference between exhaust pulses would create a minor variance. There could also be slight changes in the road condition that would be affecting the load on the engine which could change the fuel requirements slightly or a whole host of other scenarios.

Sounds like you've got your map adjusted pretty well at this point, I hope you get some time before the end of the season to go out an just enjoy the ride!

I was just curious as to your starting point, if you were subtracting fuel from the stock map with a rich AFR that would have been a bit strange, but from an existing map makes more sense.

I suppose the stock fueling might be a bit lean since it is for the lower flow stock exhaust. I always heard the stock fueling is very rich down low though, even with flies closed.

Since you thought it might have something to do with the suspension bouncing you could try adjusting the rebound or compression dampening to see if it helps, 1 or 2 clicks makes a pretty big difference, so write down and check each of your changes. There's others of this forum that would have better advice on this though.

I will have to try that. I never did set up my Olins' since they seemed to be working fine. LOL i guess cutting throttle at 140 is not something I do every day.

The .1 difference between the target AFR and the measured AFR could simply be slight differences between the cylinders (ie 1 & 4 vs 2 & 3), for example if the outside cylinders are running slightly lean and the inside slightly rich the difference between exhaust pulses would create a minor variance.

Excellent point! If you want to see a perfectly steady AFR, you probably need to tune/cylinder.

Sounds like you've got your map adjusted pretty well at this point, I hope you get some time before the end of the season to go out an just enjoy the ride!

Probably not much. That tire is just about cooked.

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All columns tuned and retuned just to make sure they were as good as I could get them. 15% and lower is a challenge in 6th gear because it takes so long to hit the max rpm for those TPs. I don't really know if I did max out because I ran out of road and I wasn't able to tell if the tach was still climbing slowly or holding steady. Good enough for this year.

I can see that having Autotue ON is a good thing even after tuning. My AFR is very close to the target AFR all the time now that I have the whole fuel table tuned and I have closed loop corrections working in all columns.

I have my 0% column and the fuel dump stairway target AFR set at 13.1 just the same as the rest of the table. The target AFR in the fuel dump zone looks good and no problem with idle. I had these cells zeroed for tuning, any reason to zero them now that I'm using Autotune to do closed loop adjustments?

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/13/2016 @ 3:39 PM *

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Wow 14 pages Rook, just go ride your bike and enjoy it, sounds like you're putting way too much effort into this for negligible results. Just my .02

* Last updated by: Kruz on 9/15/2016 @ 9:29 AM *

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For the average guy, yes but I will have to know this for NOS because those results will more than negligible. I will try the refined map compared to base map but I already have doubts there will be a huge dif. The base map was already good. If that is the case, most people won't be able to tell a big difference by refining their mapping unless they are using a dyno or drag racing or if the map was way off for some reason. It's a good feeling to know you have all the power you can have and to me, this is fun....though I do enjoy riding just to ride.

I will be poppping the base map in soon for comparo. Need to get a datalog of the Autotuned map first.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/15/2016 @ 11:44 AM *

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Here's my big bad question

Romans:

“Try and you will see even leaving your driveway you will be over 3000rpm and your wrist will be moving constantly. Now when you let off the throttle your AFR sees rich and makes a mess of your bottom end fueling.
This was very hard for me to explain. I almost wish I never mentioned it,,,,, but I had too. Make sense now ?”

Tuning the fuel dump zone on the road in gear will cause decel popping and have very rich exhaust and that is why we tune it in neutral. I still am uncertain as to why either of these would happen as long as you were using only forward throttle movement. You taught me NOT to cycle my wrist when I do tuning runs. I only do forward throttle movement. Stay in the column by Holding steady or advancing slowly but never backward. After all of these 14 pages, I still have no idea why I can’t tune the fuel dump zone in this way just as I did all of the other cells. …then again, I never tried it. As long as I keep a steady wrist, closed loop adjustments seem to be working perfectly well in the fuel dump zone after the Neutral tuning. Closed loop adjustments are trims just the same as they would be if they were open loop adjustments—-so why not do open loop tuning in gear if the closed loop seems to doing the trick?

This has me bugged so much i can't post the tutorial until I know the answer to this.

OK, reviewed the entire thread and found the answer.

The Software Is Wrong in it's speed to recognize that forward throttle motion has stopped and throttle lift had begun.,,,, So tuning should have stopped on lift,,,, BUT IT DOESN'T ! So the Bike was still running in the closed loop on Throttle lift. BINGO,,,Eyes open.
Now I know the problem how do I trick the software into knowing I have let off the gas ?. ANS, shut that area off in the AFR Table.

You let go of the throttle but Autotune continues to make trims as though you were in the throttle for a short period of time (no idea how Romans discovered this but must take him at his word). If you are making trims at 0 throttle in the fuel dump zone, they bound to be bad trims. Question answered. Sorry, I forgot.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/16/2016 @ 6:28 PM *

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SO, THANK YOU ALL!--Romans, 1bad, untamed, Nightmare (in no particular order but gotta mention Romans first for being our ZX-14 tuning pioneer). Keep an eye out for the tutorial in the How-Tos section.

I think I have a very good idea of what I'm doing now and probably will proceed without much trouble. Stay tuned for datalogging demo video. Planning a fast run with the LCD.

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SO, THANK YOU ALL!--Romans, 1bad, untamed, Nightmare (in no particular order but gotta mention Romans first for being our ZX-14 tuning pioneer). Keep an eye out for the tutorial in the How-Tos section.

Thanks to you Rook for your persaverence. I'm still learning and this thread answered some questions I had as well. Look forward to the tutorial.

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You bet, untamed.

I finally got my LCD-200 data log. Not a very valuable tool for reviewing your engine data but a nice, quick way to get an idea of what just happened. Would be much better if you could pause, advance, rewind but if you're going to really crunch numbers, you will be loading the file to Excel anyway. When I get a free copy of Excel (actually a counterfeit), I will show how to review datalog files in spreadsheets.

From what i see clicking through the video, my 13.1 target AFR is about right in the first 1500 rpm with one lean spot. Above 3500, the fueling gets more rich and very rich toward the end and that may be because I didn't tune up that high. ....but now I have some more trims!

I don't know if it's just me but Autotune seems to give me a slightly richer AFR than my target but then the closed loop adjustments bring it where it should be. Works good for cruising range but for this kind of run, I don't think Autotune would stay in any cell long enough to adjust it through closed loop.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/17/2016 @ 10:18 PM *

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When I get a free copy of Excel (actually a counterfeit),

this what i use

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Thanks, 1bad. That was what I was looking for. Looks like you can download versions for PC and Mac OSs. It would be really nice to work with datalog spreadsheets on my Mac because it has a big screen. I'll get one for the tiny laptop while I'm at it.

BTW, recent experiences with the LCD make me a little less to recomend it at all since we have the POD that superceded it. The LCD not only gets discombobulated by jiggling if the mount is a little loose, it also seems to do the same thing just from massive power increases. I was hitting the throttle maybe 50% in third gear today and the screen would go white and the thing would reboot itself. last weekend, the screen went white numerous times and I was getting an SD memory card error after it rebooted. This stops the datalog in its tracks.

I am allowing Autotune to make closed loop corrections in all cells now, even the fuel dump zone. It seems to work. but I can see how if you are on the throttle hard, it may not correct fast enough to make any difference. Also I see some very weird trims in the fuel dump zone, mostly in the 0% column. there are a number of 20 trims. I'm sure those are made at deceleration and then Autotune has to correct them when it goes back through the fuel dump zone on acceleration. Looking at my AFR gauge, it corrects in less than a second but if I was drag racing, this would be too slow. It would help if I set the min/max % trims to 5 so when a false correction was made, it would not be such a big false correction. If the AFR was corrected in tuning, it should not need more than 5% cclosed loop corrections.

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if I was drag racing,

Also I see some very weird trims in the fuel dump zone, mostly in the 0% column. there are a number of 20 trims. I'm sure those are made at deceleration and then Autotune has to correct them when it goes back through the fuel dump zone on acceleration.

If you was dragracing there would be no decel in your run time log for the 1/4 mile

Its 100% throttle from the time you leave to the 1320 mark ranging from 8krpm to 11k rpm . And after 10 passes with no trims matches IMO makes auto tune worthless . Hell nothing matches trims from gear to gear on a single pass from datalogs with autotune on . Thats why i datalog with autotune off and then make manual changes to AFR'S works well

Like i said i've got a true closed loop setup on another bike and after 2 passes my set AFR trims will match or be corrected my new base map according to my datalogs . all i do is review and just hit accept and be done . i like it and spoiled to it but it reads 300 times per second

* Last updated by: Badzx14r on 9/19/2016 @ 7:49 PM *

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Like i said i've got a true closed loop setup on another bike.

Curious. What's the brand, model of this 'true closed loop' bike?

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all i do is review and just hit accept and be done . i like it and spoiled to it but it reads 300 times per second

That must be the answer. Autotune is probably not the best thing out there for tuning but for convenience, you can't beat it. Next bike, (if there is one)I'll get a Holly ECU.

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Hub, 1bad posted this link in a comment back on p7 of this thread. right at the top of p7. I'm guessing this is the aftermarket ECU he is using in his street bike. I'm pretty sure he said it was Holly (might have posted more info before p7) but IDT he mentioned the model. Anyway, there is nobody on this forum that would have any use for more functionality than the plain Jane offers. Cost is same as buying all the DJ electronics, you do have to tap OEM wires but I'm finding you even need to do that with DJ equipment.

MOST INEXPENSIVE HOLLY ECU--$1200

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I have my 0% column and the fuel dump stairway target AFR set at 13.1 just the same as the rest of the table. The target AFR in the fuel dump zone looks good and no problem with idle. I had these cells zeroed for tuning, any reason to zero them now that I'm using Autotune to do closed loop adjustments?

You will want to keep any section of the map that autotune struggles to tune properly, in my experience this is typically the cruising range and 0% throttle.

As you mentioned later, setting the min/max to 5% would reduce any negative impact that autotuning in this range would cause but would still let you benefit from autotuning all of the other ranges to adjust for things like altitude change (that the stock ECU doesn't sufficiently adjust for).

Open Office (that badzx suggested) or even google docs should work for opening up spreadsheets/CSV files. I typically use power commander's software for doing analysis of the CSV files I get from my POD300.

I had found that letting autotune do the initial adjustments of the map to the point where the trims are minor then turning autotune "off" (set the min/max to 1%) to do manual adjustments has worked best for me. I look for throttle position/RPM cells that show a poor AFR/performance on the POD300, log the data, review, adjust, check, rinse & repeat if desired.

Once those "rough spots" are fixed, I'll set my min/max to 5% and just enjoy riding.

You will want to keep any section of the map that autotune struggles to tune properly, in my experience this is typically the cruising range and 0% throttle.

I have only checked once but that also looks my situation.. The cruising zone was filled with trims. The left side of the table has a V shaped pattern of trims with most in the 0% collumn and the shape tapers to a point around the 10% column. There are a few trims in the other columns but they are 1 or 2.

I typically use power commander's software for doing analysis of the CSV files I get from my POD300.

You can do that? Do you use the normal rpm/TP table to view data? You can select say, AFR and that data can be sent to the rpm/TP table?

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Yup, sounds like the same thing, highway cruising seems to be in the 10% throttle range, 3,500-4,000RPM, obviously depending on the road.

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=POD-300

Its "for" the POD300 but if you're getting the data as CSV files I don't see why you can't still use this software for the LCD-200, its a suite of software but what you're looking for is "winPEP8" from the launch screen.

WinPEP8 can be used to load the CSV files into a graph, I set the X & Y axis to match what the fuel map looks like to make my life easy. This is a great way of quickly looking through the entire CSV but the catch is the graph will be an AVERAGE of all of the relevant data, ie, if you have 500 data points for 20% throttle @ 4,250RPM the number you see in the graph is an average of those 500 data points.

This is significant because, from my observations, Autotune effectively does the exact same thing. So, if Autotune is mis-tuning a cell on your map, your drive the same road, gather the same data, and look at it (essentially) the same way, you will see the same result.

What has worked well for me is gathering small log files, if there's a section I'm not happy with, lets say 20% @ 4,250RPM, i'll go to a quiet/safe road, start at 20%TP/3,500RPM hit the log button to start logging, wait until I get to 20%TP/5,000RPM press the button again to stop logging. When I go to review the log, it's usually only a few seconds worth of data, but the data is for the EXACT circumstance that I want to fix.

If I saw an AFR of lets say 15.5:1 on the POD300, with averaging I'll typically see an AFR in WinPEP8 of 15:1 due to the averaging of the data that is happening, but I use this more as a way of making a note of the area I need to adjust then as an exact data log. I'll then manually adjust the fuel map (in my example, I'll try adding +5 fuel to the relevant cells, could be 20%TP/4,250 & 4,500 RPM in my example), send the map, and go for another ride on the SAME road.

I can then check my results, if the AFR is close enough to the target that I'm happy, I move on to the next problem area. Since I prefer a lean AFR for max fuel economy in the lower TP/RPM range, I can usually tell by feeling quicker than the AFR gauge reports if I still have a fueling issue, typically it'll be the cell directly before what the data log showed me, so 20%TP/4,000RPM in my example.

So, in summary, WinPEP8 = great software to quickly analyze a CSV file but like the autotune module, its a tool and requires understanding and interpretation.

Ah yes--I remember now, Winpep software. Yeah, I don't see why it wouldn't be useable with any csv file. Those would be the same from an LCD-200 as they are from a POD-300. I will have to try that out to get a general idea of what happened in the run but looks like OpenOffice spreadsheets will do the trick for analyzing every single piece of data.

Thanks Nightmare.

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Anyone with Excell or OpenOffice knowhow,

I am using Display File Manager to send the .displog I want to the desktop.

DFM is set to auto convert so .displogs become .csv when sent to desktop.

I open OpenOffice, go to spreadsheets and open the .csv I want.

A box opens asking for viewing preferences---I just leave everything at the default settings and click Open.

File opens in OpenOffice but there is no data displayed in the spreadsheet.

What am I doing wrong?

From the top blue line, you can see the DisplayLog00.csv is open but there are no numbers in the cells.

* Last updated by: Rook on 9/24/2016 @ 10:49 AM *

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figured it out. you need to select "seppparated by comma" in the text import box. It has semicolon and space selected by default. no idea what dif it makes or why but it works. got the clue from watching DJ LCD datalogging tutorial #2. The guy mentions data separated by a comma but they don't show that step. That's why I make these tutorials cover just about every single step. they are for total newbs like me.

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Hey Guys, just got back from Jolly Old England. No tea with the Queen but still all good.

Now I'm assuming you guys have learned the limitations of the software by now and are now aware of what is possible and what is not. Hopefully the frustration of learning how to use this tool has not claimed to many of you.
Looks like I have some reading to do.

Tea and strumpets?....er..crumpets? Sorry, Benny Hill was a big part of my adolescence. Hope you had a good vacation, Romans.

I think the main limitation of the software and equipment is that they are a bit on the slow side. Still it works given a few runs. The next day, you might have a slightly different AFR but Autotune cleans that up.

I have thrown the base map back in but it's been raining here so I have not tried it. I doubt there will be a huge change since your map was pretty close for my bike. You have the multiple target AFRs too that alone might give your map an advantage.

My main concern right now is the way Autotune reacts to instant opening of the throttle. Cell tracer jumps up and down across 2 or 3 cells. It may something to do with the sudden load on the injectors since Autotune uses injector pulses to read rpm. I was not able to verify if Autotune was getting correct target AFR in the first thousand rpm of a run. It seemed like it did for one of my columns but I had to go over those cells many times to zero them.

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Tried base map. No earth shattering change. Nice. Of course, if there are no complaints, the map is not going to change too drastically from Autotune. This was all valuable experience though and tremendously intriguing. NOS will be ready to run next spring so the knowledge will be applied. Just about time to put the 14 to sleep for winter.

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Hope i can scrape some cash together for a new tire because that Pirelli is just about fried.

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